New Haven Independent

Posted by: Esbe | March 29, 2007 1:17 PM

A mall isn't the answer. The last years of the Chapel Square Mall often featured very high city-wide crime rates. The mall itself wasn't the problem (it was typically a perfectly safe place to be, despite snotty Yalies referring to it as the "Ghetto Mall".) But while the mall wasn't the problem, it wasn't the solution, either. Crime rates back in the neighborhoods were often very, very high.

The solution isn't to provide an unsupervised place to hang out, rather to provide structured programs for after school and summer (as a very-much second-best alternative to the structure that many kids lack at home.)

Posted by: charlie | March 29, 2007 3:45 PM

The Criterion shows films that didn't make it? Please. The longest-running film there over the past year was "Dreamgirls." This was not only arguably the best picture of the year, it was also one of the most popular among minority groups. The Criterion is one of the best movie theaters in the country. As far as malls go, the Post Mall is a short bus ride away and it is the largest mall in Connecticut. If you want outdoor shopping, downtown has tons of stores and the main avenues heading out of town (like Hamden Plaza) all have hundreds of stores at all price ranges. New Haven also has loads of parks. It's pretty obvious that the students are complaining about something else, not the lack of a place to go see a movie, urban amenities or cheap food. I like the idea of community centers where students could set up film screenings, games and other things to do. But those already exist. Students and other young people just need to take more initiative, not expect hard-working taxpayers, the City or private mall owners to provide them with free entertainment.

Posted by: Jeff Klaus | March 29, 2007 3:49 PM

What a great opportunity for city leaders to help show New Haven's young people that the best place to hang out is a good school. People should stop calling it "after school". It should just be "school"....A full 8 to 9 hour day with highly qualified and dedicated professionals.

Recently I was fortunate enough to attend a visit to KIPP Academy charter school in the South Bronx along with some aldermen, community leaders, and several New Haven student leaders who attend New Haven high schools.

It was interesting to learn that after taking a tour of the school and sitting in on some of the classes, New Haven's student leaders seemed to be most impressed by the high expectations that the teachers had of the students. It wasn't just academic expecations, it was a set of expectations around behavior and respect. Maybe some of the folks who visited with me would disagree, but what I learned is that in exchange for a genuine strong personal commitment from a teacher for a student, the student will respond with hard work and commitment to that teacher and their classmates.

So how is this experience relevant to an article about a place for kids to hang out?

Well, beyond the kind of rigorous/respectful classroom relationship that our New Haven students observed at KIPP, (and said that they wanted in their own classrooms), this school is in session from 7:30am to 5:00 or later. There just isn't lots of time to hang out downtown. KIPP kids hang out at the school doing homework, enrichment activities, or sports. Some of us saw the BEST school orchestra I have ever seen. Kids don't get that good by spending time hanging out in the old fashion sense. There were lots of "after" school hours of practice that went into that orchestra.

In cities like the South Bronx or New Haven, with a drop out rate at 50% or more, it is our obligation as adults to change the conversation from finding a safe place to hang out, to convincing kids to invest in their own future.

Posted by: Local | March 29, 2007 4:00 PM

I'm a local not a Yalie and I am confident that it absolutely was a "ghetto mall".
I was robbed in the Burger King by a 10 year old with a gun while others stood on and looked.
A hang out for New Haven teens in Downtown would need to be structured. There will always be neighborhood rivalries. We need to keep those problems in the neighborhoods where they arise, in the faces of those who improperly raise their children and away from the businesses that maintain our limited tax base.
I wish the teens that were involved in these forums represented the masses of New Haven children. Unfortunately the second the wrong crowd of kids takeover the hangout, you won't see the children in this discussion anywhere.

Posted by: MARYROSARIO | March 29, 2007 4:28 PM

I ATTENDED A LOT OF THESE CURFEW MEETINGS AND I WAS AMAZED AT ALL THE GREAT SOLUTIONS OUR CHILDREN HAVE.ARE WE GOING TO LISTEN TO THEM THIS TIME? OVER THE YEARS I HAVE WORKED WITH A LOT OF FAIR HAVEN YOUNG ADULTS AND THEY ALL HAVE SAID THE SAME THING.THEY JUST WANT A PLACE TO SOCIALIZE.A COMMON THING IN A CHILDS GROWTH.SO A PLACE I AGREE WITH PROGRAMS THAT WILL HELP THEIR EDUCATION SOUNDS GREAT .WILL WE FINALLY GIVE IT TO THEM? THATS ANOTHER STORY.WAKE UP PEOPLE THEY ARE TELLING US WHAT THEY NEED TO STOP ALL THIS VIOLENCE.

Posted by: Esbe | March 29, 2007 6:18 PM

Jeff -- you probably know that the Amistad / Achievement First schools in New Haven are the close cousins of the KIPP Academy school that you visited in NYC. These schools take poor urban kids and provide them with the education and structure they need to perform as well as pampered suburban kids do.

To me, this is one of the great civil rights and social justice questions of our time. If these schools work, how can we justify not providing them to all our kids? They are somewhat more expensive, but not that much more. I understand that there are questions about whether they can "scale" up to the number of schools a city the size of New Haven needs, but shouldn't we be finding out? Or do we lose another generation?

Posted by: charles | March 29, 2007 7:29 PM

Jeff, you're right that the solution lies in better schools, such as charter and parochial schools. The public school system is not working as well as it could, because it is run by and for the staff, not by and for the parents and students. That said, New Haven does not have a drop out rate anywhere even close to 50%. It's much better than you make it out to be. Of course there are students who do not succeed (which is in many ways due to the situations they grow up in), but many people from the public schools are doing very well. But they could be doing even better. There's no reason why New Haven's schools send 200 students to UConn or the Ivy Leagues every year when they could be sending twice that number.

Posted by: pinkbicycle | March 29, 2007 7:59 PM

Why is it that when the conversation about what to do with Black and Latino kids always ends with Adults not listening to what they want. Why can't they have a place to hang out in. Nobody has a problem with affluent kids having a community center or country club( who does more drugs and destroy property more than these kids). So maybe we need to build in more security for a youth center, ok. But they have told us time and time again what they want. Jeff I think your on point, I just don't personally like ... Achievement First--it's my own bias about well-meaning white folks. But you make a good point, it's just you are missing the whole piece about culture and race and history. And maybe you aren't and just don't see the relevancy. However, this is a deep issue about race and class that is playing out all over America. Not just New Haven. But New Haven is our intimate window into what the problems are. This is a 400 year problem playing out on a new century stage. We have to decide when we want to pay,on the front end with a community center and recreation or on the back-end, with prisons and more prisons. Sure you could lock kids up, but someday they will get out and they will get out without any real support, or encouragement. This is the moment of truth(s). We have to rise above our biases, predjudices and plain old fucked-up sensibilities and really make some hard decisions and investments for and about our youth.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | March 29, 2007 8:11 PM

I remember hanging out in the mall (many moons ago :) I went to a catholic school so alot of my friends did not live near me so the only time we had was when we hung out downtown after school. And those are still great memories.

A lot of the schools in New Haven are not area schools. Sound, co-op, career. And all these kids take the city buses to get to school. They go to school with kids that don't live in there areas so downtown is the only place they can be with there school mates on a social level before taking the bus home.

I agree with "charlie" they need "a place to go see a movie, urban amenities and cheap food". That is centrally located so that kids from community can see that they are no different than the kids in other communities. A centrally located spot were the rivalry of neighborhoods does not apply.

I am all for community programs but now a days we need to stop separating the communities because that is some of the problems in New Haven. We need to show these kids that New Haven is now there community not just the hill or fair haven the cove or what ever area they are from. Have a place were it is safe to make friends with someone from a rival area.

It is up to us as adults to stop fostering that line of separation of communitys and I think a place downtown would be a great start.

Posted by: SWHAT | March 30, 2007 1:01 AM

I don't want to detract from what has been a great discussion so far but what is the source of this feeling that "Downtown isn't set up for us". I have heard adults echo this same sentiment, where does that come from? I personally feel quite comfortable watching the award winning "the last king of scotland" at the criterion, even more so than I would in Milford.

Is there an inferiority complex at play here? And before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, I am black and I genuinely would like to know why my people feel out of their element in their own town?

Posted by: Jeff Klaus | March 30, 2007 3:29 PM

Charles and PB, Thanks for the feedback. But Charles, I don't think you have any idea how many kids are going through the system and exiting without learning how to read, write, or do math at the minimum state goal. The 55% isn't my number...that was the number produced by a federal study and reported by the Register only a couple of weeks ago.

Maybe we should apply the "Adamowski formula". Hartford's new Supt. Adamowski came to town and completely blew the lid off of the Hartford BOE's stated graduation rate of 85%. The way he counted it, the graduation rate was actually less than 30%! As I understand it, he doesn't count any transfers into adult ed. because even if a kid attends adult-ed as an alternative to high school, they don't earn a college ready degree. And as many educators have told me, plenty of kids actually drop out of adult ed anyway.

Perhaps there is an intrepid cub reporter who has lots of time to wrestle the relevant data from NHPS and apply the "Adamowski formula" to see what comes out. If New Haven's real graduation rate is over 55%, I'll buy pinkbicycle lunch. Don't worry PB, take a friend and I'll spare you from my company.

But PB, what is it about race and class according to your theory that somehow predetermines that children of color shouldn't do well academically? In fact, the only relevance to race and class that I perceive is that poor kids of color are getting a raw deal. Not only are we not providing sufficient numbers of children with a BASIC education, but from what I see lots of our leaders aren't even willing to tell the truth about it.

For the vast majority of citizens, a decent primary and secondary education is the road to college, and the correlation between college graduation and income over a career is undeniable. What cultural and racial factors are you speaking of which should legitimately limit someone's potential to make a living in our society?

If you don't like where I'm coming from or what I have to say, then read Jesse Jackson's column in the national press from yesterday.

Lots of this reply stream has taken us off the original story - a place to hang out. But isn't that good?

Posted by: cedarhillresident | March 30, 2007 6:53 PM

SWHAT
I don't think anyone thinks that some teen do like more art's type movies but most teens will not spend there money to see one.

but you do bring up the idea of at a downtown community center for youth would be a great place for place for the art programs to do shows for high schools to do shows. Or even have a talent show for teens movie night and dance nights. and the programs that are scattered around the city may be able have there offices located it such a place.

a bookstore and consetion stand would help bring some small funds in too.

Just a thought

Posted by: pinkbicycle | March 30, 2007 7:07 PM

Jeff Sugar,

People of African descent have been in America for 400 years. African Americans have been learning against a system that never ever wanted them to begin with--so much so that it was illegal for Black people to read and write. I certainly do beleive and know that Black children and Brown children are in deed deserving of a first class education. But more to the point, well-meaning white folks have a nasty way of insulting Black people. Well-meaning white folks have a way of not listening to Black Parents and not fully understanding what Black parents are tuly up against. If you have children Jeff, do you say to your son and daughter when you encounter the police, don't make any sudden moves, don't give them any reason to shoot you. African Americans have proven that they can learn and do extremely well when the playing field is leveled and the rules are clear---Jessie Jackson. What truth are you talking about. Depending on where you sit and what your motivations are the truth takes on a whole different vibe. Oh, back to a hang-out spot, everyone needs a hangout spot. For me anyplace that make a mean martini is where you'll find me...but I digress.

Posted by: Jeff Klaus | April 2, 2007 1:52 PM

PB,

The truth I am talking about is that in New Haven (like elsewhere)way too few poor children of color are leaving high school without 12th grade skills. This is inexcusable because we know that the vast majority of kids CAN learn despite the fact that our society has not achieved all of the aims of the great society. We still have racism, poverty, discrimination. But we aren't going to change any of that before we solve the education problem, in fact we aren't going to change any of that UNTIL we solve the education problem.

We just aren't set up for success in the education arena presently. But just because we can't turn the system around over night doesn't mean that we should stop demanding that our leaders immediately begin to turn it around now. Whether it's longer hours, a longer school year, more great teachers, a system of accountability and rewards etc., there is no valid reason that we are not moving forward now with a sense of purpose and urgency.

The "truth" part comes in because our leaders today still insist that we have a terrific system of education. They claim that there is a graduation rate of what 75%, 85%?...that NHPS must be working or hundreds of children wouldn't choose to come in to attend magnet schools every day from the suburbs...that thousands of kids are succeeding mastering AP curriculum...a variety of facts or less-than-facts that are taken out of context and don't prove anything.

Let me go on the record and say that it IS POSSIBLE TO GET A WORLD CLASS EDUCATION IN NHPS. in fact, I would go further and say that a motivated and supported student can GET A BETTER EDUCATION THAN ANY SUBURBAN DISTRICT IN CT. CAN PROVIDE!

But for the majority of kids who don't have the support systems in place, this world class assessment is not reality. Sadly, CMT, CAPT tests, and anetcdotal evidence from employers and college admissions folks tell us that too many kids coming from NHPS don't know how to read or write.

I wish people would stop the obfuscation, stop touting the positive extremes as evidence of a working system, admit that the crisis exists, and set about making a plan that will work for children and their families! What's the plan??

When our leaders declare that there is actually an ongoing crisis in our education system and that WAY too few kids of color are learning at sufficient levels, and that because this is about the future that this is THE civil rights issue, and that we are going to do everything in our power to change the outcomes for kid as soon as possible, I'll applaud...and work really hard to help them. But you have got to have put the facts out there first.

PB, I appreciate the lens you see through, I just don't think you get anywhere unless you start with education. Isn't that the fastest and most effective way of levelling playing field?

Posted by: pinkbicycle | April 2, 2007 8:53 PM

Jeff,

Education in isolation is defeating and can't be sustained. The problem I have with you is that you believe education trumps , housing, food, drugs, foster care, unemployment. No one thinks to work wholistically with all these things that make the playing field less of a mine-field. I know that until families are wholly supported on all levels education will continuie to be what it is...not a priority. Sure you can run a school with kids with parents who can atleast get the application filled out. But what about kids who don't have a family structure. What about kids that have mental challenges. I hear you and on a sunny day I may even agree with you more than I would disagree with you.

Posted by: MARYROSARIO | April 3, 2007 12:05 AM

YOU ARE SO RIGHT JEFF IN FACT I SEE THE KIDS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT EVERY DAY.I HELP AS MANY AS I CAN AND I JUST ATTENDED A MEETING AGAIN THAT TOLD ME HOW TO DO MORE TO HELP IN MY SCHOOL OR BETTER HOW TO GET MORE HELP FOR MY KIDS.SO NOW I AM GOING TO GO BACK IN MY COMMUNITY LIKE I HAVE DONE SO MANY TIMES BEFORE TO GET MORE PEOPLE INVOLVED.I AM LOOKING THRU THE LENS AND I HAVE SEEN WHAT YOU SEE BUT THIS TIME I HAVE MORE EYES AND I DO SEE THE POSITIVE . PEOPLE ARE LISTENING MORE.I BELIEVE COMMUNITIES WILL UNITE TO LEVEL PLAYING FIELD AND FINALLY TAKE A STAND FOR CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: pinkbicycle | April 3, 2007 1:38 PM

MaryRosario,
Few care about kids. If we really cared about kids. Then 9 million kids in America wouldn't be without health care. There were two children that died over the last few weeks because they didn't get to a dentist and the infection in their gums spread to their brains. No it didn't happen here in New Haven. But we have about 2000 kids that go to bed hungry every night. So you tell me how do you learn when you are hungry. It is great that kids get a meal at school. And schools have to jump through hoops to qualify for the aid they need to feed children. If it were soley about education we could easily do that. But when you look at the whole picture, when you look to the horizon, we have lots to do. And there are folks who are willing to do whatever it takes against great odds. What I find fault is just putting the expectation on education and not partnering with other entities to ensure success all around. We have got to work in concert and not in isolation.

Posted by: MARYROSARIO | April 3, 2007 5:03 PM

PINKBICYCLE
I HAVE TO BELIEVE IN MY LINE OF WORK THAT MORE THEN A FEW CARE ABOUT KIDS.EDUCATION IS A START I KNOW KIDS GO TO BED HUNGRY AND SOME HAVE HEALTH CARE AND SOME DONT BUT I STILL CHOOSE TO TRY TO HELP THE MANY PARENTS WHO COME TO ME AND TEACH THEM HOW TO HELP THIER KIDS I HOPE TO GOD THERE ARE ENOUGH OF US IN OUR COMMUNITIES TO HELP EACH OTHER.I BELIEVE IN THE MOTTO IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD.SOMETIMES I GET JADED AND TIRED BUT I KNOW I CAN TRY TO CHANGE THE WHOLE PICTURE WE ARE BUT LITTLE RIPPLES IN A BIG OCEAN BUT WHEN WE UNITE IN OUR COMMUNITIES WE CAN BE BECOME BIGGER YA KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: pinkbicycle | April 4, 2007 11:58 AM

Public educations isn't some new idea. Nor is trying to figure how to keep kids engaged in school. What is new is the deterioration of neighborhoods through drugs. This arguement isn't about you and what you are doing. This is the problem. Everybody wants to defend what they are individually doing. That is not community. We need collective pressure on the people who allocate resources. Ask Jeff what his bank is doing to lend to the very parents of the kids his school teaches. How much money has the bank he works for invested in any community for a sustained period of time. The issues facing our education system requires all hands on deck all the time. Not just until your kid get through. Or well meaning folks move onto the next "it thing" It is about the long haul. Each one taking on a peice and working it forever.

Posted by: MARYROSARIO | April 4, 2007 5:41 PM

YOUR RIGHT ITS NOT ABOUT WHAT A PERSON IS DOING.IT IS ABOUT WHAT COMMUNITIES ARE INVESTING AND BUSSINESS.UNTIL THAT ALL COMES TOGETHER WE WILL HAVE DRUG INFESTED NEIGHBOORHOODS AND KIDS WITH NO DIRECTION.SO AS TERRIBLE AS THAT SOUNDS MAYBE COMMUNITIES WILL START TO LISTEN AND WAKE UP FOR THIER KIDS.I BELIEVE I WILL LIVE TO SEE THAT SOON.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | April 5, 2007 3:34 PM

MARYROSARIO

Is your keyboard broke?? Caps are really hard to read in this kind of format. I had to skip over reading your entrys. Beside Caps are yelling on line.

PB
I think your opion is what most people that are active within the more troubled areas feel. It is a collective of all agencys includeing the education system. That includes people that live within those areas as well "I am my brothers keeper".

and I love what you said....

"Each one taking on a piece and working it forever." Commintment is the key.

Most of all you put I aggree with so I am just going to say

Ditto

Posted by: MARYROSARIO | April 5, 2007 6:07 PM

cedarhillresident sorry about that i just kind of always do that.thanks for info.

Posted by: jade | April 5, 2007 11:01 PM

Hey guys, you all should read Freakonomics, by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner. It's quite illuminating on the black/white issue.

Posted by: Noah | April 7, 2007 9:45 AM

I want to echo PB's words and give support to any effort that seeks to address the entire child's life to get them to a better place.

However, Jeff is right that the assessments in place do little to address the needs or problems. But, this is due largely to the immense pressure that the happens when you tie funding to the these results.

When I hear on the radio that CT is the place where you can find the largest median income, I wonder if the problem here isn't one of poverty and drugs, but of wealth. With wealth comes the need to protect it and set up barriers. Our children recognize these barriers and even identify themselves by them, rep-ing their part of town.

When I read about the demands for a mall, I hear a cry for a community center. Something that our local culture currently denies them - but this is not a simple answer. I think to fully address this issue, you have to figure bring in the big elephant in the room. Wealth and resources. I think the KIPP schools have found resources and have used them effectively to build a community and attainable high expectations (through the use of these resources.)

Horatio Alger is a great story. Time to shine some more light on it and figure out why it's a dream denied to many.

I'd start by comparing the spending per pupil statewide (with many variables considered; facilities, after-school funding/spending, average teacher salary, actual per pupil funding, local tax base so as to describe local average income, etc.)