New Haven Independent

Posted by: charlie | April 13, 2007 9:47 AM

This project sounds too good to be true. Because it probably is. Because of the Union involvement, this project will never happen, or if it does, it will be beset with flaws and at a much smaller scale. You don't get something for nothing, especially when there is a selfish "let's take a higher salary so we can buy a bigger house in the exurbs" Union overhead cost built into every inch of concrete being poured.

Posted by: charlie | April 13, 2007 10:31 AM

Whole Foods would be a much better option than Trader Joe's.

Posted by: bad idea | April 13, 2007 11:28 AM

This project is simply a bad idea for that location. The existing apartment conversions and condo's are not leaseing or selling at the pace they once were. Whne reporting look for the non-disclosed information on tax deferral or breaks. Notice the mayor only say big buildings mean big taxes, not true..The tallest buuilding in New Haven The Conn. Financial Center pays virtually nothing.

Now that Gateway is under the proverbial bus put this project on Church Street. Then do something about making the area around the train station welcoming and attached to downtown. Then attempt to get some office tenants from Stamford, since almost 25% of the people who work in Stamford travel I-95 from north of Milford. Poor, poor planning. This city continues to collapse on itself, apparently due to plain ignorance regarding land use, density, feasibility and basic economics. River St. (bad idea), Gateway (bad idea), coliseum (bad idea), magnet school on Water St (bad idea), magent school on George St. (bad idea), long wharf mall (bad idea), Giving Mansfield St and Winchester Ave to Yale (bad idea)however most peole didn't know about this one. mid-block garage (bad idea) thank goodness it never happened. Does anyone know that the old Union Trust building may be converted to apartments on the upper floors, again with a deferral. The city is allowing developer's to convert anything, give tax breaks and then make the residential owners subsidize the big developers for years, and if the projest fails...who pays even more. The city needs a blue ribbon team of architects and appraisers and planners to help. City Plan and Economic Development should take a lesson from Corp Counsel and just hire contractors as the competent ones. You know Ude's team never wins anything. So maybe a comprhensive plan for development of downtown would be interesting and prevent patchwork. Do an interview of people that did move downtown to the new units. You may find that almost 50%, after being there for more than one-year are ready to leave, and owners are already appealing on the basis that the vacancy rate is climbing. Nice, huh. get a tax break and then appeal anyway. You see the people with the money can fight the value. It will be the regular guy who doesn't have a staff and a fortune to work on appeals and hire lawyers that will suffer. Really Johnny appears to have George W disease

Posted by: Steve- New Haven | April 13, 2007 12:22 PM

Let your imagination work here for a moment. Does anybody see what I see, soaring above the New Haven Skyline--Yes It is " Mayor Johnnie Payback"-- you know the reincarnated mayor who flew all over the State for 3 years in a miserably failed attempt at being Governor, he returned to his nest.
Mayor Johnnie Payback continues to reward all those who filled his purse and waved his campaign flags. Don't think for a moment that the cost our City has paid for his folly doesn't continue here. Pray tell, why would anyone in their right mind build a project like this with 100% union labor, bet the other proposal didn't include that stipulation or they would't accept that restriction as imposed by our number 1 Egotist.

Union Payback?

Posted by: josh erlanger | April 13, 2007 1:50 PM

There is nothing you people will not complain about. Yale fights the unions your pissed. the city uses the unions your pissed.

Posted by: Mr. Davis Bacon | April 13, 2007 2:00 PM

Intersting unsubstantiated and speculative slams against unions this afternoon. Can you name a building downtown, of at least ten stories, built in the last 30 years, that was not built with union labor? Can you tell us that, because of this, it is a better building than the union one next door? I would ask three questions. Once public money recruits, screens and trains New Haven residents to work on this job, will they show up for the second week of work --- will the bosses feel like they can be given responsibility, will they follow instruction and learn a trade, or is this just one more dead end in a series, this one a little better paying? What are we taxpayers, local state and federal, paying to make this happen? Also, will one in eight parking spaces be targeted to moderate income as well?

Posted by: charlie | April 13, 2007 2:08 PM

It doesn't matter, because the project won't happen (Unions will take the money to their luxury suburban cave-like houses and run).

Regarding another poster's comments about a comprehensive plan, I think the plan is to pack as many housing units into downtown as possible, so that a larger department store or supermarket can be supported. That kind of density will in turn make the real estate more valuable to office tenants. Based on what I've seen, I'm not worried about vacancy rates. Many of the apartment complexes downtown have very, very long waiting lists. Yes, there are five or ten condos that haven't sold downtown (mostly because they have no attached parking), but those are priced over $500K and will likely sell once they fall to a more reasonable $300-400K.

Regarding the train station, there is a comprehensive plan to redevelop that whole area (as well as Long Wharf area) into a high density development connecting downtown to the Waterfront, that was written and presented to the public several years ago. It's actually pretty good. The problem is that it is so expensive, it's unlikely to happen within the next five years. It's seems like something that's step by step, starting with the rebuilding of I-95 (and Long Wharf) that will take place between now and 2014.

Posted by: B | April 13, 2007 4:12 PM

Josh,
I'm pretty sure the writers that complain about the unions are consistant and vice-versa.

Posted by: East Rockette | April 13, 2007 9:17 PM

What am I missing? Other than the boring, reflexive union-bashing and mayor-hating, what exactly are the objections to this plan?

A Whole Foods or Trader Joe's within walking distance of Lower East Rock and Wooster Square? A chance to catch trains to NYC and Boston without running all the way down State St? A building you'd feel safe walking past at night on the way home from Cafe Nine, rather than the big scary parking lot? More hidden greenspace like the secret gardens on Audubon?

This sounds great! And not just for those living in the downtown condos. Bring it on.

Posted by: Esbe | April 13, 2007 10:25 PM

1-5 million dollars on the tax rolls is a big deal. And someone actually building "transit-oriented housing", instead of just talking about it, is great. But the grocery store is a really big deal, too, because it will sell housing throughout downtown and also in nearby neighborhoods. If it really is a Trader Joe's or Whole Foods, then middle-to-high end housing throughout the city will benefit.

Posted by: robn | April 13, 2007 11:10 PM

fuzzy drawing but...not so good looking.

Posted by: what next | April 14, 2007 11:48 PM

LET'S JUST SEE HOW "TRANSIT-ORIENTED" THESE DEVELOPERS TRULY ARE WHEN THEY REALIZE CITY BUS STOPS PRESENTLY SURROUND THEIR "GREEN" BUILDING. DOES ANYONE REMEMBER DAVID CORDISH, AMBIANCE, AND THE OMNI HOTEL...THE BUS RIDERS DO....AND SO DO THOSE WHO FOUGHT TIRELESSLY FOR YEARS TO GET THE ELIMINATED BUS STOPS BACK. DON'T LET THAT HAPPEN AGAIN, MY. MAYOR.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | April 15, 2007 1:16 PM

bad idea
Thank You!!
First the area around the train station will be part of Yale soon enough. At least that is what I have heard from a group (CORD) in the New Haven area. They say that Yale has it's sites for the land along the highway (downtown exit strip) all the way to the train station. That is why they are not focusing on that area. It will be fixed by an non-tax paying entity. Give it another 10-15 years red tape takes awhile to go through. Then again I could be wrong.
Magnet school on Water St not really sure if that was a city idea. I think it was a joint effort with parents looking of other alternative to a large school. Which I think the school was a good idea.
But I do like most of your post.

Random thoughts...
-First question.. "400 residential units will have 50 affordably priced for moderate income people"... ok did you read this, out of 400 of the units only 50 yes I said 50 will be affordably priced? What is moderate income to them?? (was that what was promised at first? )

-They changed a lot of there original proposal did they allow the other companies that bid that chance to change there original proposals??

- why was this bid chosen??? Because the Union is involved ($100 million of pension-fund financing)?? I am pro union but not if in the end it is going to end up doubling the cost of the original proposal. Or the fact that this project may end up hitting a stone wall. Like gateway is.

-"four-story high wall of retail space" ohhh sounds really pretty??

-"almost invisible from the street" yeah from the street but for those of us that look at it from a distance it still appears to be an ugly sky scape of New Haven. Not an historical looking vision.

-"built on the shoulders of people who did a tremendous amount of hard work building up the downtown" and this is there reward? Grant it be the store is the only saving grace of this development but every other bid could of had a store. And would of been a lot nicer to look at.Are becker and becker going to fill the 350 non affordable apartments??

Posted by: charlie | April 16, 2007 11:15 AM

Cedar Hill, you're information is wrong. A few answers to your questions:

1) 50 units - the actual number should probably be lower. We shouldn't be giving away the most valuable land in the city to a poor family just because they are poor. Yes, it's OK to subsidize a small number for artists, etc., but giving away huge 4-bedroom apartments to families is nuts.

2) Ask the City. I'm sure it was based on a number of factors, probably most importantly being the track record of the developer. As you might know, this team has completed many large projects before. Most of the other bidders weren't nearly as good.

3) They did not change anything from the proposal. A rendering and description of a project has nothing to do with a proposal for development.

4) That's not what it will be. The article is confusing but you're just misunderstanding.

5) Tall buildings may more in taxes and increase density. For every person who thinks a 12 or 20 story building is ugly, there are probably 10 who think there should be more tall buildings, especially near train stations. That way you can reduce car traffic, which in my opinion is much worse than 12-20 story buildings (30 or 40 story is another story).

6) For almost everyone involved, this is a better reward than looking at a parking lot that's been there for 40 years. Which is what the other developers might have left. Regarding filling apartments, nobody else has a problem filling them up, so whey should they?

Posted by: cedarhillresident | April 16, 2007 3:57 PM

charlie
First they did promise that the units would be affordable. Not just 50. Second, other bidders do have great track records and guess what they are New Haven companys that as stated above were "people who did a tremendous amount of hard work building up the downtown". And they had the money to back it.
They did change there plans. Did you look at the originals at all submitted by the 6 major companys that bid?? Did you see what they offered or are you just basing your comment on this building (this project in general) is good for the city?
I am totaly for the development of this corner. But I think that several of the other plans offered more revenue. And being a tax payer that is my main concern, my second concern is the historical perservation of the look of New Haven. I think the Ivy leauge charm of this city is one of the major things that draws people to live here and if we take that away we will be no different than anyother small metro area.

I did not misunderstand what was put here. They made alteration based on the complaints that people made about the choose that was made. They tryed to make it more like two of the other bids that were submitted.

Charlie lets be real the only reason this was choosen was the word Union.

I do think the parking that they offered was a good thing but lets hope that each family that moves in has only one car. or are we in for a great parking shortage. Well I am sure they are banking on that some will not have cars at all.

I know my griping is not going to stop this project from happening. But I am unhappy with the choose.

Question the city does not get the rent of this project they only get the taxes based on what the property is worth right???

Other question it states above anywhere from 1-5 million in taxes thats a big gap?? How much 1 or 5 big difference.

Posted by: josh erlanger | April 16, 2007 10:57 PM

cedarhillresident,
I think its pretty obvious that the city ignored the original plans and picked the developer with the most money behind them to make sure the job got done. Then they made sure the developer was willing to work with them to change the design to better fit the city's needs. I think it was a smart move. The last ting you want is a developer declaring bankruptcy half way in to the project. As for affordable housing I now we all go back and forth on this on the NHI but I really don't see why private developers should be forced to give away property. All of new haven outside of downtown and east rock is affordable. I don't see the need to give away the most valuable property.

Posted by: jsedam | April 18, 2007 9:43 AM

Doesn't this new version of the plan for Shartenberg eerily compare to Chapel square mall? For pete's sake, if this is going to happen bring the tower to the corner of the lot and put something other than a parking garage at the corner of Chapel and Orange! Horribe Horrible Horrible!!!!

Posted by: John White | April 30, 2007 12:27 AM

First of all I love New Haven!! I really think that it is the best city in the state and we have more people living downtown than any other city it's size in the state. I may not know all the behind the scenes issues but any progress in New haven is welcome to me.

New haven is called a mini New York and this is fine with me. A new building awesome!!! Remember this isn't a small town so it doesn't have to look like Mayberry. Cities do have tall buildings and believe it or not people love them and live in them. So when people were gripping on it's height I laughed. Most were from the suburbs who are scared of cities and buildings. People RELAX!!!! On a side note.. I wish I was involved in the past for the designing of some of the buildings downtown. This is suppose to be a vibrant city but look at some of our buildings. Most are dull,dark and dismal..eg Knights of Columbus,Temple Medical, FBI building, CFC(conn finan center) to name a few. Looking at the design of this Glass building is very welcoming!!!

Lastly, New Haven is keeping it's charm as a college town BUT do we have to focus on Yale and their needs? Mayor PLEASE STOP GIVING LAND TO YALE!! enough is enough!!!! A friend was visiting from Philly and said they call us Yale, Connecticut.. That doesn't make me feel good at all. I don't want Yale to own all of New Haven and make us look like a bustling city only when school is in session. The city's identity is getting dissolved and over shadowed by Yale, so stop giving up the land..PLEASE!!!!

Sorry for going off on a tangent!!!!