New Haven Independent

Posted by: Terrorism - NOT | June 6, 2007 9:01 PM

Ok..time to tone done the rhetoric. "Terrorize" the City of New Haven and federal "acts of intimidation"? Not hardly. They were searching for illegal immigrants -- who had been processed through the courts already, who also refused to abide by the court ruling, and ICE picked up additional people who were also here in violation of federal law. It's time to quit calling these folks "undocumented" -- they're a lot more than undocumented - they're illegals. For a member of the bar, Bob Solomon to also adopt "terrorize" and opine with little or no facts is not what one expects from the Yale School of Law.

We could for a moment assume ICE did want to intimidate the city -- so what? The city has chosen to thumb its nose at the law and it has embraced illegal behavior despite the good intentions. There is a cost to that.

Posted by: JackNH | June 7, 2007 9:48 AM

New Haven never fails to amaze me. What part of "illegal" do our so-called leaders not understand? Did they think that giving ID cards out to criminals would somehow make them off-limits to the authorities? Jeez.

Posted by: TrueBlueCT | June 7, 2007 11:30 AM

Jack--

What's your solution to America's immigration problem. Deport all 15 million of them? Is that your position?

And if not, I'd like to hear how you propose to deal with the problem. I'm sure you've thought long and hard about it.

Posted by: Donald | June 7, 2007 11:31 AM

All Federal Aid to cities and states who have set themselves up as islands of freedom to Illegal Aliens should be stopped.

You want them you support them.

The Cathoilc Church in California school system should be assigned all Illegal Immigrant Children. Illegal Ailean School age children should be reassigned to parocial schools only and taken out of the public school systems entirely; you want them, you got 'em!!

All Medical Emergencies etc. for illegals should be sent to Church or Imunity Island city supported Hospitals to get their free care. The Churches and Cities want them let them pay.

I want a law passed that allows me to withhold the proportion of my taxes, State, City, School, and Federal, that supports Illegal Aileans. I can withold Dues payment to a Union activity that supports political activities; Why not those supporting Illegal Ailean Criminals?

Posted by: Donald | June 7, 2007 11:54 AM

Now that ICE has rounded up some Illegal Ailiens it's time for the FBI to arrest the Mayor and City Councilmen who support these illegals.

Posted by: RanDomino | June 7, 2007 12:40 PM

If something is illegal, then either it is wrong or the law is unjust.

(using "they're illegals!" as your entire argument is an Appeal to Authority, a logical fallacy)

Posted by: Alec Timmerman | June 7, 2007 2:09 PM

It is funny, how all the law and order types forget that there are two groups breaking our laws. The immigrants, and the people that hire them.
If no one hired illegals, then they would just go homee of their own accord. If there was enforcement against corporations and employers, then they would stop hiring. With no jobs to be had, no illegals would come.
It is so much easier to attack and go after a weak, powerless, brown person, than it is to go after the wealthy employer. If you are truly sincere about stopping illegal immigrants, then quit attacking the symptom, and go after the source.
If we seal the border and cut off the jobs, there will be no more illegals. That is it. Just those two things. Decide if you really want to solve this problem though. Please.

Posted by: Cathy | June 7, 2007 2:10 PM

They are here ILLEGALLY.

They are committing ILLEGAL acts

They don't pay taxes, they don't contribute to the community, they don't follow laws.

Are Americans being allowed to commit these illegal acts in THEIR countries? No.

Migdalia Castro and her friends should be ashamed of supporting criminals and illegality.

It is clear that parts of our legislative system are rotten to the core.

Posted by: libdem | June 7, 2007 2:36 PM

By the way Donald, "ailien" has only one "i". It's spelled "alien". Just a handy tip from an illegal "ailien" friend from New Zealand. :)

I speak English. I can spell it, too. Can you?

Posted by: Tar and Feathers | June 7, 2007 3:29 PM

The city violated US Code Title 8, and advertsied it. I hope they got all aliens. Alien is defined in Title 8, along with who will be deported. Think of it repatriation.

Fuego los politicos!

Posted by: Civility | June 7, 2007 4:58 PM

Tar and Feathers, I think what you meant to say was, "Despiden los políticos" (Fire the politicians), or if you were being really extreme, "Quemen los políticos" (Set fire to the politicians). "Fuego los políticos" doesn't make sense: fuego is a fire like in your fireplace; it isn't a verb.

Cathy, I also have to make a correction to what you said. I have seen immigrants paying taxes with my own eyes with ITIN numbers, and if you check into our current Social Security problems, you'll find that we're being bailed out of our debt by the millions of dollars coming into the system from people paying under incorrect or ITIN numbers - most likely, undocumented immigrants. As for saying they don't contribute to the community, I know undocumented immigrants who are tutors and volunteers. And as for your claim that Americans are not allowed to go to their countries and commit illegal acts, please remember the enormous international drug trade and sex tourism business. Unfortunately, these horrendous acts *are* being allowed.

By supporting undocumented immigrants, we aren't supporting lawbreaking - we are supporting justice, which is not always equivalent to the law.

Posted by: Joe | June 7, 2007 6:44 PM

It's not clear to me what are the "illegal acts" that are being committed by these undocumented residents. Besides being here "illegally" what exactly are the illegal acts in which these undocumented residents are engaged. It is unfair to label millions of people here as criminals because of one action they have taken to better their lives. Furthermore, the broad generalizations and baseless accusations about the supposed criminal nature of undocumented residents is abhorrent.

It is actually heartening to me that people still want to get in this country with all the hatred and venom I hear being spewed by others. These undocumented residents actually believe in the idea that the United States is a beacon of liberty and a land of opportunity. As someone who does not believe the nation is living up to its foundational principles, I am given hope by the folks who come here from around the world trying to make a better life for themselves.

I would hope that all the harsh words could be tempered and people could come together and proceed in an intentional, deliberate, and thoughtful manner. I am disturbed by the example we are setting for the rest of the world. We are a better people than that and we should start acting as such.

I realize this may be trite or overly earnest (or both) but at times like this, I like to go back and read The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus because it reminds me as to what is important and why the United States is special. Most of us (including me) only ever remember the last few lines, which go as follows:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Thank you New Haven. You've done right by Lady Liberty.

Posted by: TrueBlueCT | June 7, 2007 6:47 PM

Donald, Cathy, Randomino--

Acknowledging the fact that no one is comfortable with the current immigration situation, WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO SOLVE IT?

Deport all 15 million? Maintain a permanent underclass of foreign labor? Force the Bush administration to go after the employers, hard?

It'd be good if you offered some constructive solutions, beyond just complaining.

Posted by: randy perkins | June 7, 2007 8:32 PM

I am so sick of these High Officials whining over and over about this....The People are ILLEGAL ALIENS.....do they not get it?

Posted by: Donald | June 7, 2007 9:10 PM

libdem; Evidently you have nothing to say!

TrueBlueCT; We have laws; Enforce them. We do not need more BS laws Congress and Justice Department will not enforce or like the new proposal in reality throws the doors wide open.

Joe; Calling an Illegal Alien an "Undocumented immigrant" is like calling an Illegal Drug Dealer an unlicensed Pharmacist.

How illegal does illegal have to be before laws are enforced?

Posted by: esteban | June 8, 2007 7:01 AM

What a completely silly business. Have we all forgotten who picks our fruits and vegetables? Cleans our toilets and makes our beds? Packs our meats? I suppose all you compainers covet those fabulous jobs.

Posted by: Donald | June 8, 2007 8:45 AM

Joe
America has the most lenient immigration laws of any country. More than 2 million people migrate here per year legally on a permanent basis and near 2 million more are here temporarily for education, Tourism, or H1-B workers.

Many of your "undocumented" were once here on student or H1-B visas who refused to leave when the time came. They made a contract and broke it.

Then we have those who come as tourists who check in at customs and never check out with no way to track them.

Most illegals in this country use false papers or engage in identity theft. My wife who hadn't worked for several years decided to go back to work and soon after was contacted by Social Security because there was someone else using her Social Security Number. She had to verify who she was and her employment background to clear up the situation. Social Security told us a Spanish lady in Dallas was using her identification.

If a family member, unemployed spouse, hasn't checked their "UNUSED" Social Security records lately they might discover they have been working and living in another city and in some cases 100 cities.
They might also discover there is an arrest warrant in some state for theft or credit fraud. That happened to my, then 19 year old, son while he was in the Army stationed at Fort Hood, TX and applied for his first ever loan.

Posted by: P. Philip | June 8, 2007 2:40 PM

The term immigrant should be used to define those that have come to this country legally. Those that have broken laws to enter into this Country are criminals and should be referred to as "illegal-immigrants". They do not have a say in our policies or legal proceedings. They chose to break into our Country; they chose to place their children at risk. Society should not take blame for individuals' poor choices. That individual is responsible for his/her choice and the impact on their family. It is unfortunate that a child may come home only to find that their father/mother has been taken away- hopefully to prison. The parent should be shamed that they put their child into such a predicament. Being born within the confines of this Nations borders does not an American make. To be an American, one must follow the laws laid out before us and society can not make concessions to anyone, from any country that breaks into our Country. There is a legal way to enter this Country and join this wonderful community. If someone wants to come here legally, I welcome them with open arms. If they break into our Country, then they deserve the same treatment as if they broke into a home on your street. They deserve swift and immediate reaction with dire consequence.

Posted by: Bernard Bate | June 9, 2007 2:06 PM

As a resident of New Haven, I am proud that I live in a city in which the Mayor, the Board of Aldermen, and the citizens have openly and nearly unanimously asserted the Enlightenment principle that all people, regardless of status, have a right to the same protections as anyone else. It is frightening that we live in a time in which it is necessary to be asserted. The words of some in this discussion (Cathy, Don, Randy, et.al.) are a chilling reminder of a broad-based nativist/totalitarian movement in this country that threatens all our liberties regardless of where we were born.

Posted by: nfjanette | June 9, 2007 10:47 PM

I have seen immigrants paying taxes with my own eyes with ITIN numbers, and if you check into our current Social Security problems, you'll find that we're being bailed out of our debt by the millions of dollars coming into the system from people paying under incorrect or ITIN numbers - most likely, undocumented immigrants.

Can you provide some pointers to information that proves this opinion? Clearly, some illegal workers steal SS numbers and use them, and therefore pay into the SS system. What's the total amount estimated they pay in vs. the cost of federal/state/local services they cost? I'm honestly curious. Shouldn't everyone be?

Posted by: nfjanette | June 9, 2007 10:50 PM

It is frightening that we live in a time in which it is necessary to be asserted. The words of some in this discussion (Cathy, Don, Randy, et.al.) are a chilling reminder of a broad-based nativist/totalitarian movement in this country that threatens all our liberties regardless of where we were born.

It's chilling to me that you can make such absurd generalizations. I'm no fan of many of the laws passed by the congress over the past 6 years, but I am also most assuredly in favor of having national borders than are secure and of having illegal immigration strongly curtailed - for the sake of both citizens as well the illegal workers.

Posted by: Answer on Social Security | June 10, 2007 11:46 AM

NFJANETTE,

In answer to your question, the Social Security Administration estimates that workers without social security numbers (undocumented immigrants) pay $7 billion in social security taxes and $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes annually. This despite not being eligible to receive benefits from either program. As many undocumented immigrants use legitimate social security numbers (often purchased from citizens or just used without anyone's knowledge) the actual benefit to these programs is likely dramatically higher. Since there is only a financial upside to both the SSA or any citizen whose social security number is used, no one ever complains. These unclaimable payments have a huge stabilizing effect on the Social Security Trust Fund.

You can learn about these and related issues in this report: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/06/pdf/immigrant_health_report.pdf

Posted by: illegals drive down fair pay | June 10, 2007 9:59 PM

Please, it is not that nobody wants the work, it;s that illegals do the work for next to nothing. They should work to be legal, so fair wages v=can be obtained by all. This situation generates disharmony in the lowest paid tier of society thus contributing to social costs for both citizens and illegals. Why is that so hard to see.

I also agree that the employers need to be audited for workers legitimacy. They should not hire an illegal in accordance with Code 8, which has been provided in the comments over the past weeks. But do you really think Kica and John and the rst would ever look at Fusco, or any of teh school or redevelopment housing contractors. On Front St alone, where a tremendous amount of work was done and at Montery many contractors used illegals. By the way, if the illegal doesn't have proper tax information here is what happens...the companies with holds the SS, State and FICA dollars, but never pays the matching amount snce they know the illegal cannot claim it. This is where t he activist should be focusing. Develop a progranm to get people lining up to become legal, and then argue that if they have been here and contributing they should not be forced out, but the employeer should be accountable for any funds not paid as macthing, and the funds they with held with no intenion of matching. If all did this, then their would not be jobs nobody wants to do. If the pay is fair people will do it. Again, the most important thing is that this has been around along time and we msut see John is using it to get hispanic votes, It is a gross misuse of a human condition that is painted by a fowl administration. We should make national attention for being leaders in helping illegals achieve legal status, not by giving thme amnesty

Posted by: nfjanette | June 11, 2007 12:29 AM

The report you site is written by a liberal think tank, and the footnote for the information you quote in the report is an article written by a liberal reporter for the NY Times. Not that there's anything wrong with that; I like to fancy myself a centrist - progressive as well - but I think "liberal" is a more accurate description of the Center for American Progress. In the NY Times article, there are multiple guesses regarding the actual amount paid into the Social Security system by illegal workers using fake ID numbers. Such payments clearly occur - and, BTW, cause problems for citizens that have had stolen numbers - but it's not clear to me that there is a fair and accurate estimate of the amount, nor a similar estimate of the amount of illegal wages that are completely off the books.

Posted by: Answer on Social Security | June 11, 2007 8:43 AM

NFJANETTE,

While there may be multiple reasons why stolen id numbers hurt folks, this is not one of them. Someone paying into your SS account is a good thing. That's why US citizens often sell their SS numbers to undocumented immigrants.

As to your point about there not being a clear way to estimate the amount of wages paid off the books, sure but since immigrants paid off the books still would not be eligible for Social Security or Medicare from a math perspective it does not matter. Remember all other "entitlement" programs pale in comparison to these two. As long as there is a large net benefit to these programs (immigrants pay in but cannot get payments out) what they pay here dwarfs what benefits they might get from say using a local shelter or medical van.

You don't like the sources but the New York Times and Center for American Progress are both considered pretty legitimate by fair observers. Whether they are liberal is not particularly relevant to whether they are accurate.

As to people being paid off the books, this has not proven to be the case in the large raids that have been done. Most employers beyond someone who is hiring a guy walking by to mow the lawn or hiring someone standing around at Home Depot need to demonstrate that they paid their employees for three reasons: (1) otherwise they would not be able to show the expense for tax purposes and would need to pay taxes on it as profit, (2) they would be falsifying tax records which unlike hiring undocumented immigrants will get you huge fines and sent to jail, and (3) they would not be able to claim that they had no idea that the employee was undocumented.

In any case, you only really need to believe that undocumented immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. My guess from your tone in the last post is that you pretty much agree at this point that they do while you disagree that the numbers can be specifically known. Well then -- mission accomplished.

Posted by: sherri | June 11, 2007 10:33 AM

Anyone who believes an illegal immigrant is here to live the fantasy of the "American Dream" needs a reality check. How many of these dollars that they are making are flowing across the southern border back to their home countries? Millions! The wonderful president to the south of us even condones his countrymen coming to our country...not to have a better life for themselves, but to boost his countries economy. Why doesn't he just spread some of his coutries wealth amongst them and create jobs for his own?

By coming here illegally and working for a lower wage than an American would, it just drives down the wage that many of our own people could be earning. At the meat packing plants and such, as soon as a raid has emptied the workforce, check out the lines of American's applying for the same jobs who everyone was saying no one wanted. Amazing how those same American's couldn't get a job there before.

I personally do not have a thing against anyone's skin color, since I happen to be a person of color. I just have a problem with people continually saying that this county was built by immigrants and that we are now locking them out. Yes, we were built by immigrants...who came here LEGALLY. Yes, it's a long tedious process to come to this county legally. I believe we have limits on how many people from each county can come into this country each year for a reason...we as a nation, cannot support but so many bodies.

I feel sorry for anyone in another country that has a hard life. Look at Darfur and any other third world county. People are dying everywhere but we as a nation cannot help everyone, no matter how hard we try. Heck, we can't even help ourselves. We have people of our own that we cannot seem to help...that we look past every day.

Having a city or county seat hand out I.D. cards is not going to make someone "legal" in this country. It's just another piece of paper that most illegals will put their fake name on. Does this solve a problem? No. Does this stop ICE from taking this person into custody when they check their data base and find this person is illegal? No.

When you enter a country illegally you know what the consequences are before you proceed. You and your family should always be aware that you could be sent home at any time. Don't act so shocked with the Federal Government actually does it's job.

Posted by: Response to Illegals Drive Down Fair Pay | June 11, 2007 12:46 PM

Illegals Drive Down Fair Pay,
Many of the people working with the immigrant community are trying to help them become legal. The problem is that, contrary to common belief, undocumented immigrants can't simply contact ICE and obtain legal status - in fact, for most undocumented immigrants, doing this would trigger an automatic removal process for them. Right now, very few undocumented immigrants are eligible to obtain legal status, and only if they fall into certain, very specific categories (these are examples, but the actual requirements are much more technical): they are applying for asylum, they are victims of domestic abuse or a serious crime, they have been here for 10 years and their removal from the US would create extreme hardship for a US citizen for permanent resident spouse or child. I'm not an immigration lawyer, though, so if one comments, I'll defer to his or her expertise.

This situation is why advocates for the immigrant community are working so hard to get a comprehensive immigration reform bill passed this year, because without that, most of the immigrants here have no chance to become legal. In other words, it's not that they don't want to--it's that they can't. Unfortunately, immigration status holds the key to labor problems in some way: many immigrants are afraid to report when their bosses are abusing them, or not paying them a fair wage, because they worry that their employers will report them and they'll be deported. Good ideas to get things started to make things fairer in the labor market, though. You might be interested in checking out this article about some of the things you were talking about with immigrants and labor: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?site_area=1&aid=255.

Posted by: nfjanette | June 11, 2007 1:27 PM

In any case, you only really need to believe that undocumented immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. My guess from your tone in the last post is that you pretty much agree at this point that they do while you disagree that the numbers can be specifically known. Well then -- mission accomplished.
Not quite - but it's a good effort. While it's clear that some portion of illegal workers pay some portion into the SS fund without receiving those benefits, the total amount involved vs. the cost of services to federal/state/local governments is not nearly as cut and dry as you state. Is the funding of SS helping local police, fire, and social services? No.

Your anecdotal claim regarding the pay status of illegal workers aside, I'm unaware of a comprehensive study that reports on the amounts involved for reported/unreported income paid to such workers. There is, simply put, no way all of these people are being paid in the books with SS numbers.

Posted by: Answer on Social Security | June 12, 2007 12:33 PM

NFJANETTE,

I can feel the momentum of your movement towards the Light Side. Trust the Force Luke.

As to the local police, fire and social services you mention, these are basically funded by municipally levied property taxes. Everyone who either pays rent or owns a house effectively pays these taxes. That's basically everybody. Property taxes are a regressive tax without a phase in based on income and the homeowner deductions on federal and state returns do not apply to renters making the taxes even more regressive for lower income folks whether documented or not.

I said "basically everybody" because of course there are extremely low income families which live in public housing and pay a percentage of their income towards rent. These families are the one group that it could be argued are not covering local property taxes in their rents. There are excellent reasons why the government ensures shelter for these families; however undocumented immigrants are completely excluded under federal law from living in public housing and are similarly restricted from other federal entitlement programs paid for by the federal income tax.

So it is hard to argue that undocumented folks or anyone low income is likely to reap local largess when they pay property taxes. This is further driven by the fact that property taxes are hyper local such that suburban wealth located a few miles away does not benefit urban low income families by redistributing wealth like say a federal income tax.

Basically, undocumented immigrants on average pay taxes but use relatively few services. We can quibble at the margins but again Medicare and Social Security dwarf other government programs in terms of dollars and undocumented immigrants are large payers into these programs but can never get this money out. Thus, it is safe to understand undocumented immigrants as net tax positive for American citizens despite talk radio claims to the contrary.