New Haven Independent

Posted by: John Campbell | June 17, 2007 10:58 PM

You have issues Melinda. Why are you condemning the American people for wanting their laws enforced so that everyone who comes to America (legally) has a chance for a better life. Learning the English language and American history is fundamental to becoming a citizen of America. Somewhere down the road, that became racist. It became racist to be an American. Heck, I took two years of Spanish (flunked one year) and took French. We had a choice back then. Now we don't.

Posted by: Peter G. | June 18, 2007 8:52 AM

C'mon Mr. Campbell. Anyone with an ounce of sense should be able to see that a movement led by people who are opposed to Americans learning another language, or that frequently casts the problem as one of Spanish-speaking people "taking over" and "destroying our culture" has serious problems with ethnocentrism and racism.

The only difference between Paul Streitz and a white supremacist is that Streitz uses euphemisms like "our culture" when what we means is "white culture." His audiences invariably understand that that is EXACTLY what he means. For all that Streitz continues to preach that immigrants are hurting African-Americans, I notice that you don't see a single non-white face in those photographs.

Posted by: Bruce | June 18, 2007 9:57 AM

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don't understand why people work so hard to keep other languages out of our society. Many countries all over the world get by just fine with two, three or more languages. Is it really that big a deal?

Posted by: Come On | June 18, 2007 10:23 AM

What a diverse crowd!! There must be at least 3 white guys under 50.

I am so proud they care so much for African-Americans. No doubt this groups is lining up to vote for Obama.

Seems to me all the second generation Latinos I know speak English just fine. There is no movement among Latinos to not learn English. Just like every other immigrant group to the US, within one generation everyone is an English speaker and by the second generation people are starting to forget their native tongue.

Our "culture"? Which culture is that? Every region of the US has different cultural roots mixing together depending on where people have historically immigrated from. I agree with Peter G. these are nothing but code words to disguise hate when speaking publicly.

Posted by: Concerned | June 18, 2007 10:29 AM

Mr. Campbell, I think you should get another history lesson. If we do what you would like, and get rid of everything Spanish in this country, maybe we'd start first with the cities. You could start with Los Angeles (Spanish for "the Angels"), or Las Vegas (Vegas means meadows), or San Francisco, Santa Fe, San Antonio, even San Diego. All of them are some of the largest and most populated cities in their states and regions, all of them with Spanish names. But since you don't want Spanish present, and since in your view of American history, everything that is Spanish is un-American, why don't you propose to get rid of every single one of those cities? You'd probably think it's just way too much to see those Spanish names on a map, so let's just eliminate them.

That example not good enough? Want something a little bit closer to home? How bout the Quinnipiac. I imagine you've lived her long enough to understand the name, but have you recognized the oppression faced by these people? The name remains but do the people? Think of the forced relocations, the wars, the deaths faced by the indigenous peoples of this country.

It's time you relearned American history. Look up the racial implications of the Mexican War and America's "Manifest Destiny." Google "Trail of Tears." If you want, go even further and learn about America's imperialist presence in the Phillipines. Find some of the Jim Crow laws, take another look at the riots that occurred during the Civil Rights movement.

That's the American history you've probably forgotten, and it's the same history that you're doomed to repeat.

Posted by: Taxed To Death In NH | June 18, 2007 11:39 AM

There are no code words, folks -- and those of you who would demean the legitimate concerns of American Citizens and residents of New Haven are practicing your own rascism. Note: "some diversity, three old white guys" or "white culture" -- this blatant race baiting is as disgusting as it is disengenious.

It is not a black/white/hispanic or Jewish thing -- it amazes me how many of the supporters of this damnable ID card always fall back on race as their poor excuse for intelligent reasons or lack thereof for their positions on this issue. It's not about race, it's about legal vs. illegal. I'm married to an immigrant -- she came here legally with her family, who all speak english well, including her parents.

What irratates me is simple: ILLEGAL residents of the United States demand we give them special treatment and spend large sums of tax money to do so. It's the city ID cards and their future expense, it is about being able to read and write in English but because they refuse to learn english, we have to spend all this time, effort and money so they can read all the signs in Spanish or be able to press 2 for Spanish.

Any of you non-world travelers every go to France? Or how about Quebec, Canada? It is hard to find an english speaker there and they don't tell you to dial 2 for english.

Now for the facts: Low wage illegal immigrants do drive down wages for the jobs held by the low skilled, low educated population. That's a fact. Whether that affects blacks or other legal immigrant groups as a class of people -- I don't know. But it seems logical since they are competing for the same finite number of jobs. This was not a problem when illegals were primarily farm workers -- but they aren't anymore -- they represent large populations in cities like New Haven, where they work in the restaurants, car washes and other similar jobs. Anybody who says differently is either in denial or just lying.

These ID cards are simiply pandering to the Hispanic population and its advocates. DeStefano couldn't sell this on a statewide platform -- so he will impose here with the assistance and insistance of his LT -- Kica Matos -- who ran, no surprise, Junta. This is why many of us feel highjacked by the system and by the very people, who are on the public's payroll, working against the interests of 90% of the population to serve 10% and that 10% aren't even legal -- theyu're not citizens, they are residents and there is a difference.

And finally to NHI and Melinda Tuhus in particular: The bias you both show in covering this issue is stunning. Your graph at the end of story trying to spin the taxes paid vs. benefits received piece was glued on to a story that had nothing to do with that -- it was supposed to be about this gathering in East Haven. As for the sarcasm expressed in the opening paragraphs of the front page -- they don't merit comment, particularly " Surprise! East Haven" and "immigrant bashers" which they're not -- they're illegal immigrant bashers or illegal aliens whichever you prefer.

Posted by: Come On | June 18, 2007 12:15 PM

Hey John Campbell,

If you are an immigrant you do have to learn American History and English to become a citizen. Whenever it has been tested, a majority of citizens born in America have not been able to pass the test of American history and civics required of immigrants to become citizens. (And the test just got even harder.) Get your facts straight. No one has claimed it is racist to require English, history or civics to become a citizen. This is made up nonsense that folks like you use to cloud the issue.

What is racist is when one group claims to ownership of some superior unique American culture when we all know (or should know from American history class) that America has had wave after wave of immigrants and each has built upon American culture. Just think of our foods, did America pass from existence with the introduction of pastas? Did we become less of a unified country when we all tried sushi? Get real.

For better and worse, America's culture is both overpowering and absorbent. Former communists learn to shop at the mall, orthodox religious immigrants find their children questioning the old teachings and atheists find their children visiting churches, synagogues and mosques with classmates. At the same time we adopt words from each other's native tongues ("resumé", "wok", "vigilante", "cappuccino", "frankfurter", "kosher", "voodoo", "karaoke", "tsunami", "toboggan", "tobacco" -- all added by different non-English speaking immigrants or Native Americans).

This is how America works.

It is not surprising that few young people joined the East Haven meeting (did any?). They don't see America as their parents do, and no generation ever has.

Posted by: Mountebank | June 18, 2007 1:50 PM

Frankly, I don't seem to see Hispanic immigrants as "refusing" to learn or speak English. Obviously, if nothing else, there is a huge financial incentive (not only in the US but in the world at large) to learn it.

As far as the history lesson from "Concerned", I found it a bit ironic that you mention the history of American imperialism, but somehow seem to conflate Hispanic immigrants to the Americas with Native Americans as victims.

Sorry, but the reality is that the Spanish Empire was massively bloodthirsty and as much of an "oppressor" of Native Americans as anyone else.

You make many good points, but, if we are going to talk history, to paint white europeans as the
sole culture with a history of exploiting and subjugating other peoples is ahistorical and not at all productive.

Posted by: John Campbell | June 18, 2007 2:09 PM

A lot of comments, but really nothing definitive. I never said that one claimed that I did not want the Spanish language in our society ( I took Spanish in high school ). When you start to make up statements to support your position, it becomes of course worthless. And when you call people names out of frustration of being caught, it just makes it worse. There is no defense in breaking the laws of another country, no matter the reason or need. The point I was making is that those who have come to America illegally think it is racist to expect them to honor the laws of American society. They don't think about how they affect others. They are not interested in how they can change and improve the situations in their own countries. Its the easy way out. The racism was created to avoid those responsibilities. This is not about a language issue, its about people who have broken our laws. We have a system in place in America that creates and provides social unity. That system is being challenged by people who do not want to participate. They want to change the laws to benefit only them, not America. It has become racist to be an American, even though America is the most ethnically diverse nation in the world. We are racist because we won't allow others to break laws that provide unity, equality and fairness in America. We are racist because we don't want cheap illegal labor for multi-national corporations so they don't have to hire the American worker. There are many excuses generated these days to avoid our social responsibilities, and we have become complacent in our efforts as a people to end the corruption and greed of industry. Illegal migration from wherever is just a symptom of a free society that's in a lot of trouble.

Posted by: Come On | June 18, 2007 3:39 PM

John Campbell,

Your second post was much better. I disagree with it wholeheartedly but it was not filled with lies to make your point. You are no longer throwing about the nonsense about people not wanting to learn English or US history.

Now you are making your argument squarely. I think your argument still fails but it is not filled with lies to divert attention and create fear. Thank you.

Here is why it still fails. You acknowledge that a system has been created which encourages these people to come but then does not allow them any path to citizenship. You attribute this system to wealthy multi-national corporations. I think you are almost certainly correct. National politicians have aligned with wealthy corporations to create opportunities in the US while undermining economies in poor countries. To feed their families immigrants come here and take low wage jobs.

For some reason the US has effectively closed its doors to immigrants so that the large majority now arrive illegally. The numbers which are coming are not surprising and could have been absorbed if a system had been set up to allow a steady flow of immigrants. Instead national politicians and tv and radio hosts have chosen to make hay (and money) by terrifying people about these folks invading our country. They are only surprising because 12 million are here now but if these folks had been let in with a functioning system over the last 15 years, they would have amounted to only about 800,000 people a year. A very small number in a country of 300,000,000 which has a rapidly aging citizenry.

Because our citizenry is aging we have a big problem, namely that we don't have enough workers to pay into social security to pay the benefits for the baby boomers as they retire. Nor do we have enough workers for the jobs as the retirements occur.

So this brings us back to where we agree. However, I would argue you are simply on the wrong side based on your stated interests. You should want these folks to come out of the shadows. Further, you should want them to become not only legal but citizens. When they are not afraid they will be able to bargain for better wages. When they are citizens they will be secure enough to form and join unions and vote for pro-worker politicians. Then you will have no doubt that they cannot be exploited to lower wages for other American citizens.

Only ending the threat of deportation and the denial of a path to citizenship will serve your purposes.

Posted by: Come On | June 18, 2007 3:51 PM

Taxed to Death,

I don't think you get it. Most people can see this meeting for what it was. A bunch of bigots getting together to exact hate.

You may have many intelligent arguments but when you hook your horse to this wagon, you leave the rest of us cold. Streitz had to stop someone from making racist comments about Senator Obama in the meeting (check out the other news sources for this one). Good for Streitz but let's get real, folks came for the good old hate. And for whatever reason he did not feel the need to similarly cut off a speaker talking about the "gays" in the march. Not clear how sexual orientation plays into this issue but when hate is flowing it seldom can force itself to maintain focus and feed on only one target at a time.

What I don't get is why otherwise apparently intelligent people go off the deep end and join a bunch of racist thugs or defend their meetings.

If you care about the suppression of wages, you should want undocumented immigrants to come out of the shadows. Make sure they cannot be threatened by their employers with deportation. Give them a path to citizenship so they share your concerns and needs.

Keeping them outside does not appear to serve your purpose or theirs.

Posted by: Taxed To Death | June 18, 2007 3:56 PM

It's interesting that so many illegal alien supporters seem to think there is no evidence spanish speaking immigrants -- legal and illegal -- won't learn english. I just recieved my property tax bill -- a whopper from King John DeStefano. The front page is for english speakers with eye popping tax payments due, the back side is for spanish speakers. Why would we go to that expense if they all spoke english? Call 411 --you'll get dial 2 for spanish. Why did ICE come in with a spanish speaking interpreter? Because they all speak english? There seems to be a problem, message control.

Posted by: Please come correct! | June 18, 2007 4:46 PM

To "Taxed to Death in NH"--
What do you mean when you say:
"ILLEGAL residents of the United States demand we give them special treatment and spend large sums of tax money to do so."

Illegal immigrants themselves had little, if any, role in lobbying the city to implement id cards. So, please, tell me what you mean!!

Also, why do you think that they "refuse to learn to speak English"? Seriously, please tell me why you think this! Please?

You may speak English, but you don't write it very well. Some help:

1.rascism --English spelling is racism

2. disingenuous -- the English spelling is "disingenuous"

3. irratates -- in English is "irritates"

4. simiply -- simply

5. insistance -- I think you mean "insistence"

6. theyu're -- (I am sure this one is just a type-o, but it should probably be "they're" or you could say "they are")

Seriously, though, please answer my above questions. Tell me what the illegal immigrants demand and tell me how you know that they refuse to learn English. Thanks~!!!

Posted by: visitor | June 18, 2007 4:48 PM

Spaniards are not white Europeans anymore?

Posted by: concerned | June 18, 2007 4:58 PM

good point mountebank, i thought about that as i was writing it but failed to address it. Spain was definitely an imperialistic empire, and the indigenous peoples of Mexico and Central America were victims of it.

I think the comparison I was trying to make was that oppression was present in all areas of American history - whether it be during the settling or after the U.S.-Mexico War in 1848. I feared that Campbell would respond by saying that the northeast didn't have any cities in Spanish and thus the issue did not appeal to him. I wanted to ensure that he realized that other cultures were oppressed and eliminated by settlers. His views seems to support that the English culture was the only important one in his Eurocentric view of American history. I was aiming to disprove that.

But it just turns out that he didn't listen and instead chose to change the topic to a whole new idea about how he took Spanish in high school and how now he can't speak his mind without being considered racist.

You're right Mr. Campbell, you're not racist, you're prejudiced. The act of instituting a law with the intent of discriminating against an entire group of people based upon their race, that would be racist. (wait...English as the only language...that would be targeted at which group of people?...and that entire group of people targeted would have what background?)

Looks like you still need a history lesson Mr. Campbell. Who says it's fundamental to learn English? Where and in what government document does it clearly state that it's fundamental? What other reason is there to implement this law other than to boast and abuse the power of the Anglo-dominated society and political arena that still exists in this country?

But nevermind that question Mr. Campbell. You just go on asserting that English needs to be the only language (how does that benefit America again?). Go on telling everyone about how you took Spanish in high school and how that makes you so understanding of the language, the culture, and the history that it represents in this country (oh wait, you flunked it). Go on talking about how legal immigrants are okay when the immigration laws clearly show preference immigrants who are of a certain class, race, and level of education. And then go on talking about how the laws of this country promote equity.

Posted by: Tired, Oh So Tired | June 18, 2007 7:43 PM

Taxed to Death,

Let me get this straight, your upset because you have to press 2 if you want to speak Spanish when you call the gas company or 411. You are upset because you have to see the ugly Spanish words on the other side of the paper when you get your tax bill from the city. Is this really your biggest concern in the world or even your biggest concern about immigrants?

Here's some things to think about:

1. You can't complain that immigrants aren't paying taxes and complain that the tax bill is sent in Spanish. I guess the city finds that sending the bill in Spanish increases the likelihood it will be paid. Guess this means "they" pay taxes.

2. Is it that hard to not press 2?

3. Maybe you (again because of your lack of American history courses) are not aware of the large Puerto Rican population in Connecticut. These folks are not immigrants. They like you were born US citizens, many on the island of Puerto Rico. As US citizens, educated in Puerto Rico their first language was Spanish. They came originally to Connecticut in large numbers to pick tobacco in the first half of the last century, and once the community was established other Puerto Ricans followed as is their right just like US citizen residents of say Colorado.

4. While people are learning to speak English, my guess is that the phone company, gas company, etc. still want their business. Hey that's capitalism but it says nothing about whether people want to learn English. And of course their business creates jobs.

5. New Haven Adult Education provides English language instruction at several locations around the city. These classes are always totally overcrowded. Given your high level of concern, it is too bad you failed Spanish or you could help teach the classes. Not sure why these people are wasting their time in these classes since they "don't want to learn English." Must just be for the socializing.

6. Come on get over it. You keep switching your reasons because each one is so easily defeated. Makes one start to wonder if there is some other reason you don't like these folks.

Posted by: HeavyD | June 18, 2007 7:48 PM

Don't bother with this gang. It's not just a few folks yelling racist comments at their events -- the crazies extend all the way through the ranks. Here's a little gem right from the CCIC website: "The ethnic cleansing of America's Middle Class will continue at the hands of our political and business leaders."

At least it's nice to see this is an issue of citizenship and economy, not one of, say, ethnicity. Um, except maybe the "ethnic cleansing" part...

Posted by: cedarhillresident | June 18, 2007 8:51 PM

This is why I moved back to New Haven! I got so tired of listen to the ignorance of my neighbors! When your parents came here from where ever, what do you think they went through? Let me tell you ..... you are just as ugly as the people that did this to your ancestors!

Posted by: John Campbell | June 18, 2007 9:03 PM

What's interesting about blogs is that you receive responses to topics you never discuss or mention. I can't respond or answer to a topic I never brought up.

One example: "You're right Mr. Campbell, you're not racist, you're prejudiced."

In this case I never said anything like that. I was speaking about those who call Americans racist for not allowing them to remain in this country illegally. They use what is commonly known as the "racist card".

Another example: "You acknowledge that a system has been created which encourages these people to come but then does not allow them any path to citizenship."

I never said anything like that.

Everyone has an opinion on every subject no matter if its about immigration or the environment. But what you don't do is assume what someone might say or invent a statement for someone else to support your argument. After reviewing what I posted, I found nothing that would justify the comments made.

Maybe if I ask a couple of questions I might get a balanced response:

If you voted today, not withstanding party affiliation; who would you vote for and why?

And just for grins: Should the United States make an alliance with the country of Iran.

Posted by: Rudy | June 19, 2007 1:27 PM

All people who are concerned about the illegal human traffic crossing over our country's border are not all racists etc. Some are, some aren't. The subject of concern on illegal immigration is justified and doesn't deserve the race card. Yelling fire in crowded theater when there is none, crying wolf when there is none, crying racist when it isn't deserved, is shameful. Those who are crying racist are bringing their own personal war to a topic that doesn't deserve it.

Older people are less likely to be Pied Pipered than younger persons on the 'open border so forgive illegal entry' theme. I think it's a wisdom thing. Fool me once, shame on you, twice shame on me. So, maybe that could be a reason the older persons were at the rally. The younger ones haven't been fooled as the older ones have. No place is more fertile and ripe to break promises than in the political arena. The book of excuses is endless.

I admire those who are genuinely concerned and take the undeserved verbal abuse.

I blame those in trusted elected positions who promoted the lax attention of immigration and our border activities to bring this brother against brother issue. They are the bad guys on this. And my vote will be accordingly.

Crossing into the United States should not be the same as going from one state to another.

A fool and his and her country are soon parted.

Perhaps a stretch but, the legal citizens of Fort Trumbull had the American Dream taken away or severely changed. While the city of New Haven is choosing to give aspects of America to non citizens.

Posted by: Come On | June 19, 2007 2:35 PM

John Campbell,

Looks like maybe I gave you too much credit. Here was your comment: "We are racist because we don't want cheap illegal labor for multi-national corporations so they don't have to hire the American worker." If you did not mean this to mean "You acknowledge that a system has been created which encourages these people to come but then does not allow them any path to citizenship." Then what precisely were you talking about.

Actually I no longer care. It is clear that you really are not trying to find a solution you just don't like these folks and want them all to leave. You have not responded to any of the posters who have basically eviscerated your arguments, you have just pretended to not see your own words when they are spoken back to you in coherent English.

Otherwise you would address the clear responses to your posts with the intelligence others have used to show you are wrong, not raise issues of form. Either you have a coherent argument or you don't. I no longer believe you either do or have any intention of having one.

Posted by: Mark | June 19, 2007 4:11 PM

Illegal is distinct from being immoral, we can change the law. Many individuals have commented on the fact that their position is driven by the "legal" status of people. If the current immigration bill before the Congress passes, do you feel differently about people? Or is it something else. My understanding of the Civil Rights movement in the U.S. is that changing laws is only a small part of the process. Educating ourselves to recognize similarities rather than see differences is critical to our success as a people(in the broadest sense).

Posted by: John Campbell | June 19, 2007 7:19 PM

Mr.Come on, you wrote:

"Here was your comment: "We are racist because we don't want cheap illegal labor for multi-national corporations so they don't have to hire the American worker." If you did not mean this to mean "You acknowledge that a system has been created which encourages these people to come but then does not allow them any path to citizenship." Then what precisely were you talking about."

This was my statement: We are racist because we don't want cheap illegal labor for multi-national corporations so they don't have to hire the American worker.

This is your statement: You acknowledge that a system has been created which encourages these people to come but then does not allow them any path to citizenship.

How do these two statements mean the same thing?

My statement reflects the opinion of those who are here illegally in America.

How does that statement equate to your statement: "You acknowledge that a system has been created which encourages these people to come but then does not allow them any path to citizenship."

How could I have acknowledged a system I never spoke about?

Those two original statements do not reflect the same idea, even remotely.

Mr.Come on, you have been caught in a lie. It would have been easier if you would have admitted your mistake instead of trying to cover them up.