New Haven Independent

Posted by: johanna | June 7, 2007 5:42 PM

Father Jim/ Jaime actions and words embodies what true faith in God and a message of love unlike those who use religion to create hate and fear. When will others, including national leaders release the reigns on hate and give into their conservative "faith" in God and support true immigration reform that recognized and respects the human immigration experience. This is one that would keep families in tact, reduce exploitation of workers immigrants and non-immigrants alike in this country and abroad and end foreign US policies that impede economic growth in Latin America and in other countries that can help families live a dignified life and survive in their country of origin.

I would vote for Father Jaime/ Jim for President.

Posted by: Taxed To Death | June 9, 2007 9:23 AM

Maybe Fr. Manship should be fast tracted for sainthood. At least that's how this article and poster make it appear. The more I listen, though, the more I've come to realize this whole movement by illegal immigrants and their enablers like Fr. Manship, Junta, even city employees are not only ignoring and circumventing our laws and the rule of law, but they intentionally bastardize our democracy -- which is stunning, since the illegal immigrants aren't even American citizens. How is it that you come to our country by any means but legal ones and then demand rights? I sat in a public hearing on the ID program and this one young lady actually accused us of enticing these illegals here? I was shocked. I'm still shocked. These people come here because they want to. They're illegal because they don't want to follow the rules. Once here, most make no effort to assimilate; most don't make any effort to become legal, most pay little or no taxes because of it and work for cash. But they have the gall to demand rights, access to city services, medical care and the like.

Fr. Manship is very shortsighted in his efforts to ram illegals down our throat -- what effort has he made to get these folks into a legal status? Has he suggested they join the military? Has he suggested they get sponsors? Does he encourage them to pay taxes? If so, where are the results of such advocacy on behalf of America and the City of New Haven? Do we have a big influx of illegals serving from New Haven in the military? Do illegals in New Haven file more tax returns than than the norm.

Since Fr. Manship and Bishop Rasazzi think so highly of illegal immigrants, I think these good folks could be moved to the Vatican next week. I may even join them. They can camp out there in the Pope's courtyard and eat with the other Catholic elites, get free healthcare too. Don't bar the gate..all should be welcome. There are no illegals at the Vatican in God's sight, right? Si se puede!!!

Posted by: Frank Iezzi | June 9, 2007 6:31 PM

It kills me how when liberal causes are at stake, the media can't get enough of priests and ministers to rally for their cause. Have that same representative talk against abortion and same sex marriage, and they claim seperation of church & state. Just remember that Jesus said "render unto Caesar what is his". There was no seeds of anarchy and disrespect of law taught to his followers.

If the church is onboard with illegal immigration, than they can foot the tab for all the medical, educational and legal bills that the undocumented generate for hard working, law abiding taxpayers. That tab estimated now to be $20,000 per illegal family that we have to pick up.

Posted by: Come On | June 9, 2007 11:39 PM

Frank,

I have grown tired of people making up numbers about how much undocumented immigrants "cost" the rest of us. Most honest observers believe that undocumented immigrants pay much more in taxes than they receive in benefits. Here's a report that lays this out in great detail.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/06/pdf/immigrant_health_report.pdf

No legitimate source estimates that the average cost per family is $20,000. Quite the opposite, because most immigrants pay taxes but do not use services, they almost certainly lower taxes for the rest of us.

Posted by: Filomena | June 10, 2007 9:12 AM

Christ reached out to the poorest and disenfranchised members of society and that is the role of the church. Mainstream Americans don't want illegal immigrants but somehow expect clean dishes and silverware when they eat at restaurants, affordable produce, among other things. Clearly these people fill a need. New Haven is a very expensive place to live and if there wasn't work for them they wouldn't be here. Sure Americans could do these jobs but they don't and they won't and that's reality. Who is going to pick lettuce for $18 an hour? How much is that lettuce going to cost you? Let's stop eating, and living and then there won't be any jobs for these illegal immigrant to fill and they'll have to go back to their countries.
I hear it all the time from politicians "there people want to work and go to school in our systems" Oh my God, how horrible! To want to work and go to school. Well, isn't that American? With so many obese, p young people hanging out at home with their brains oozing away in front of video games, we are upset that there are young people that want to go to school and work. If some one in this nation want to get off their butts and go to work and learn--God bless them! We should be helping people who want to improve their lives because that's the kind of person that is going to improve the world!!!

Posted by: Fr. Manship | June 10, 2007 2:34 PM

We have young people in our parish who are in the military; some are currently serving in Iraq. Some have come to Church to ask for a blessing as they prepare to go to war. Their parents, some here for nearly 20 years, did not enter the country through the legal process, and remain here without papers.

In the parish, we routinely remind the people about the need to learn English (and offer them an opportunity to do so), to obtain a federal Individual Tax payer identification number (with some, and to pay their federal income tax. Employers, because of their accounting system, can not pay cash. Employers pay people with checks, which have the typical withholding for social security and taxes. Because of the work of several community organizations, many find that filing federal taxes is easy, and in some cases, they even get a refund for overpayment.
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The folks that we find in our country are here because of trade policies promoted by our government, corruption in their countries of origin, and the failure to pass a comprehensive immigration reform. The people are here and our neighbors. I do not think that is forcing anything down anyone's throat. It is just the truth of the matter. (I have visited some of places from where our neighbors come. I told them not to leave their countries. The journey is dangerous, life is hard here, the separation from family harms everyone, and that it is illegal.)

(I would not like to live at the Vatican. I prefer New Haven. And I think the person who suggested that really wants to stay in New Haven, because she/he likes living in the city too.)

Posted by: Peter G. | June 11, 2007 11:27 AM

Taxed to Death asks: "How is it that you come to our country by any means but legal ones and then demand rights?"

At the cornerstone of the concept of rights as embodied in our constitution is the idea that rights belong to people inherently and not because they "earn" them. Even without going further into the justice or lack thereof in U.S. immigrant laws and policies, it's possible to recognize that a person's rights do not depend upon their status under those laws.

In the context of the City ID ordinance this is particularly important. The First Amendment is our point of reference when we think about the ways in which we expect the law to safeguard the right to engage in political activity, raise political demands, engage in speech, assemble, petition the government, etc. The First Amendment begins with the words "Congress shall make no law . . . " and then goes on to say what the U.S. government may not do to limit these critical civil liberties.

Notice that the First Amendment makes no reference to citizenship, nor does it limit its umbrella to those who are not convicted of crimes. A convicted felon on death row has the same right to free speech as your elderly grandmother who has never gotten so much as a speeding ticket in her entire life. An individual who is in the U.S. without proper visa or immigrationpapers has the same right to free speech in all its forms as you and I.

So every person who petitioned the City of New Haven to pass the City ID ordinance -- every native-born, naturalized citizen, visa holder, and undocumented immigrant -- had and has exactly the same right to be heard on this issue.

And for the same reason, the evidence that ICE used last week's raids and its practice of "collateral detentions" to collectively punish the immigrant community raises a serious First Amendment question that needs to be answered.

When the government uses its police powers against people because they have spoken up, made demands, or petitioned the government, the most basic principles of the First Amendment are being violated. Again, this is equally true whether you or I believe that the people that the government is targeting are "deserving" of the right to make demands or voice opinions.

Even if you do not agree with the speech at issue -- in this case, petitioning the City of New Haven in support of the City ID ordinance -- you have an absolute obligation if you believe in the First Amendment to oppose such an abuse of governmental powers. No matter what solutions you may favor for addressing the problem of immigration, when you challenge the right of immigrants and their supporters to speak out, and when you champion government crackdowns against them, you subvert the First Amendment and the whole of our civil liberties.

It is ironic indeed that today two of the greatest threats to our civil liberties come from those who claim to defend freedom. Those who favor shredding the bill of rights in the so-called war on terror and those who would shred it in the war on immigrants pose the greatest danger to freedom.

Posted by: Taxed To Death | June 11, 2007 12:34 PM

Fr. Manship says he has parishioners who are in the military but that they are not the illegal ones -- it's their children who, presumeably are legal, who are choosing the military as an occupation. My point was, military service is just one way their parents could have gotten right with the law which they refused to do. That's my whole point -- they've refused to make any effort to become legal. As for accounting practices by companies -- many of them pay illegals in cash, and some just pay them as contract labor -- none of it with taxes taken out. I'm sure some pay taxes but I doubt that's the norm or a figure that passes 50%. What continues to irk me, however, is Fr. Manship's allegation that these illegals are here because it's America's fault. It's America's immigration policies and trade policies that makes these illegal immigrants come here. We didn't make illegals come here -- they came because they can make more money here and we didn't enforce our borders. Period. It's no more complicated than that. At the end of the day, illegal immigrants come here because they can and they stay until we arrest them and deport them after a hearing with an immigration judge.

Filomena: Repeating a myth that illegal workers do jobs Americans don't want -- is just not true. When ICE shut down a big meat packing plant out West -- there were over a thousand American citizens who applied for those jobs.

Come On: I read your link -- you really need to read more outside of people who tell you what you want to hear. The people who put that document together have a bias and it's reflected in their reporting. I don't know what the tax ramifications are nationwide or here in New Haven. I'd like to know that -- but it needs to come from a good source that's known for accuracy -- yours is not such a group.

Posted by: Taxed To Death | June 11, 2007 10:45 PM

Peter G -- There is a big difference in the rights the illegal immigrant community seeks, actually demands and the kind of rights that are embedded by God. Not all rights are created equal. Some rights are conferred upon you by the federal government as a virtue of citizenship -- tens of millions of immigrants have earned those rights. They came here according to the law; they took the citizenship test and swore their allegiance to the United States. Others came here illegally, and still earned their American citizen rights by serving in the military for 4 years or otherwise earned those citizen rights some other way.

On the matter of free speech, that's a right people in this country have -- whether legal or illegal. I never suggested that these folks don't have the right to speak. What is somewhat galling is that people use that unique freedom of free speech in America to try and subvert our laws and safeguards just because they didn't want to follow the law. There is no inherent right to be in this great land of ours -- many of us were fortunate enough to be born here, but we were all immigrants at some point in our past which is why we have been a pretty open country for more than 200 years. But there is a process and a procedure. If you violate it, get caught and are adjudicated guilty..you are subject deportation. And by the way, there is no war on illegal immigrants. I happen to agree with you on the War on Terror but it's a heroic stretch to apply the same abuses to the illegal immigrant community.

Posted by: Jonathan | June 28, 2007 3:50 PM

Taxed to Death:

Alright, I am probably going to rabble so please bear with me.

Clearly each of us has different ideas of reality. Just listen to mine for a bit.

We're all the same.

People do whatever they have to do to create a better future for their families. I've heard a lot of the argument that past immigrants came here legally, etc.

They came here legally because they could. Poor people cannot come here legally very easily anymore, and that's fine because those laws are meant to keep immigrants out period.

In past immigration waves the U.S. was conveniently accepting poor immigrants legally. I am sure if European immigrants shared a border wit h the U.S. and things got bad enough in their own country, they would come illegally as well.

And their goal would not have been to subvert or "plant seeds of anarchy." People just want a better life. The fact that people are breaking the law to come here should not be that astonishing.

Laws are flawed, and that's why they are meant to change. It was illegal once for blacks to be literate. It was also illegal for early Americans to settle farther west than the 13 colonies borders, but they did it anyway. They wanted a larger farm, more income for their family. So they were willing to settle illegaly, fight the native americans and the British over it. My point is there is nothing new here.

We just have to learn to accept and understand. Deporting 12 million people is out of the question, not to mention impossible. Like some on the forum said, no one is shoving them down your throat, it is just the reality.

We can either keep them as an invisible population, or create a path for legallization and assimilation. People just want to lead good lives.