New Haven Independent

Posted by: Bruce | September 17, 2007 9:35 AM

I would not agree to one minute of community service if I was them. They did nothing wrong. There was obviously no malice -- just an overreaction to a harmless game. Maybe it's better that our police err on the side of caution, but don't make innocent people foot the bill for it. Are they going to start arresting children for making chalk drawings on the sidewalk?

Posted by: Esbe | September 17, 2007 10:16 AM

The "mayor's idea" of 50 hours of community service is ludicrous. So, the FBI has warned local police forces not to get confused by this, a fun sporting activity practiced around the world without repercussions, but it is the runners who should have known better?

Considering the alternative of counter-suing the city, Dr. Salchow's offer of holding a fund raiser is very, very generous. The city ought to offer an apology and accept this fine man's charity in return.

Posted by: Angelo | September 17, 2007 10:26 AM

While I agree that the police went overboard, it still doesn't make me feel sorry for the dork, oops, doctor. With all due respect Bruce, you're an idiot, of course you wouldn't arrest a kid for a chalk drawing. Actually, if these running derfwads drew chalk arrows, nothing would have happened (hey, it makes more sense than running around with flour). They should be charged for littering at least. If I ever see his flour spread around, I'm going to sweep it up and ruin their little game of "chase the doofus"

Posted by: ThorTW | September 17, 2007 11:42 AM

Angelo, obviously you don't get it and despite the phrase, "with all due respect", show no respect at all for something you seem to have little knowledge of. Calling someone names and threatening to "ruin their little game..." sounds like you may have a personal issue here.. *shrug*

In any case, the issues here are whether someone should be held legally accountable for what someone else thinks or how they may react. The law, (though I have yet to see the actual wording of the statute, does anyone have a link to it?) seems to make an individual responsible for thinking through what might cause someone else to be fearful, and abstain from that activity. So I should curb my own behavior because of what I THINK someone else might think and be afraid of??? Or else I will be considered reckless? In this case, this very thought HAS been examined, and in hundreds of cases around the world over a period of years, the conclusion has been that thinking people would NOT find a bit of flour on the ground to be fear-causing, and per precedent, the activity would resume. And to be asked to perform community service for a legal issue that has not been resolved seems, at best, to be jumping the gun.

There was no hazardous substance. There was no reckless behavior. There was no intent to cause alarm. There WAS over-reaction, borne of an atmosphere of fear that has been actively cultivated by our own government in recent years. There should be no legal or financial repercussions to these upstanding people and citizens. People should not be held accountable for what someone ELSE thinks. There was no crime here.

Posted by: Jim | September 17, 2007 11:53 AM

Angelo,
This little game is nothing new - it's done all over the world - using flour as the primary marking method. It's cheap and biodegradable and works anywhere. Chalk is sometimes also used, but only on streets and sidewalks, not on grass or natural areas.

And your comment to Bruce should (of course you don't arrest a kid for a chalk drawing) should also apply to this - of course you don't arrest somebody for dropping a handful of flour. Or else where would our civl liberties be? How much freedom are you willing to give up in the name of safety from suspected terrorism?

And if you want to arrest someone for littering, why not start with arresting the smokers who drop their noxious cigarette butts on the ground?

Instead, lets apply a little common sense and stop living in fear!!

Posted by: Pothole | September 17, 2007 2:53 PM

Did anyone notice the "Horse Hash Harriers" error in paragraph 4? It should read "Hash House Harriers".

Posted by: Gary Doyens | September 17, 2007 4:13 PM

Someday, I hope to read an article that doesn't showcase utter and complete incompetetence by the city, misstatements of fact by official PR talking heads, overzealousness of police or fire, or some other divisive public policy that pits one group of citizens against another. I really don't think that's asking much. Alas...today is not such a day.

We are still being subjected to the shrill sounds of hysteria and subjected to officialdom that lacks a scintilla of common sense. Right now, we're the international laughing stock of the running world and we collectively look like a bunch of trigger happy hayseed hicks who love to dress up in zoot suits and play hazmat. It's past time to apologize to these people and pray they don't sue the city..with all due respect to our "new and improved" corp council's office.

Posted by: Shannon | September 17, 2007 4:16 PM

Hello. I am Daniel's father-in-law, and was in New Haven by chance, visitng Daniel, Doro (his sister), his mother and my daughter. I was there at Daniel's home when he got the call to come to IKEA because there was some question about the flour.

Because I am a close family member, I know a few things about the Hashers. I can't ever relate the pain, anguish, fear and emotional distress we all incurred waiting at the New Haven Police station and waiting for the outcome of the court the following morning.

I can say - having spent over 26 years - both active and Reserve - serving my country, sometimes in hositle areas, that I had to seriously question - not my service to my country, but what ever happened to common sense?

It has been mentioned several times that Daniel offered to explain/eat/do whatever to prove the flour was not an "unidentified suspicious substance." His offers were refused.

From my experience in 'hostile areas', let me assure you that 'nothing can be solved and/or de- esculated' if one party is not willing to listen to another. Has anyone been following the sectarian activities in Iraq, lately??

Although a 'world away' and tragically more serious to our coalition forces and American service members, the basic premise is the same. If the response is "We're right, the other side is wrong", than nothing positive will ever come to pass.

I have prayed every day, since this unfortunate incident happened, that Daniel and Doro and families on both sides the Atlantic would one day hear that 'cooler heads' and more importantly that 'justice will prevail'.

Whether you are in military uniform or you are a lawyer/judge, you raise your right hand for the same reason: To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.

Sadly, legally as well as in other ways, sometimes we 'fall short' of that oath. In my himble, non-legal opinion, to for the State of Connecticut to refuse to drop the charges, let alone suggest or require "community service" for a totally innocuous act, causes me to truly ponder and scratch my head.

If someone (I'm suprised I haven't heard it yet) says the old "Ignorance of the law in no excuse" phrase, my retort is: Really, well suppose you tell me ANY person - in any state of this union - including our fine, brave and sacrificing members in law enforcement (including lawyers and judges) - who can quote you by 'chapter and verse' all current and applicable law that affects their state and/or municipality.

Other than the obvious misdeeds such as stealing, assault, DWI etc., who would know or expect that using flour - of all things - to mark a running trail - would violate a law in Connecticut (Breach of the Peace) to the degree of a felony?
And that's even after the particpants fully cooperated and offered and immediate explanation!

Honestly, as a father/parent, a former US Service Member and former paralegal, I truly have to ask myself: Have we as American citizens forgotten our basic beliefs?

That we live and must continue to live/cope in a very turbulant world, where we must realize there are those people who would still commit horrible acts upon us, is an unfortunate reality. And that we should be vigilant is our responsibility.

But, I believe it was the former President, Harry Truman, who upon stepping down from the podium after President Eisenhower was sworn in, was asked by a reporter: "President Truman, what is the most important position you have ever held in this country?" His reply was the most divine comment I could ever have expected. He allegedly said to the reporter" The most important position I have ever held in this county

Posted by: bugupit | September 17, 2007 6:24 PM

"Mayorga said the mayor's goal had been for the Salchows to perform 50 hours of community service."

Who the Hell is John DeStefano to have a "goal" for a criminal case? How about an apology from Mayorga for mouthing off?

Posted by: robn | September 17, 2007 6:43 PM

Hey New Haven!

WAKE UP!!!!

The "Age of Fear" is the product of manipulative Republican neocons and we shouldn't succumb to it. Living in fear isn't living.

Posted by: High Bush | September 17, 2007 8:27 PM

I am a hasher & have been so for over 15 years. I agree that hashing is not for everyone, you must have an open mind, be flexible and expect the unexpected. Oh ya - you also have to be adventerous. I'm sad that CT & the city of New Haven so overreacted - I think all can agree there are much bigger things that should be the attention of the police & state's attorney's office. I hope the good Dr. gets a chance to set a run downtown - I think that is a fabulous idea to resolve a misunderstanding that was down right nuts.

Posted by: Geoff | September 17, 2007 9:14 PM

Angelo, you don't appear to either appreciate or understand simple games like 'hare and hounds' or a paperchase. Based upon your premise that these runners were devients or dorks, maybe you would like to see all childrens' games banned also?

Maybe if everyone showed more tolerance and attempted to accommodate other points of view and behaviour then we wouldn't seem to want to find fear at every turn.

Posted by: John | September 17, 2007 9:33 PM

These charges need to be dropped and as quickly as possible. A terrible ordeal has been imposed on the Salchow's for no good reason. As their laywer points out, the FBI and local law enforcement have long been well aware of the harmlessness of flour trails.

Counter suing does not seem inappropriate to me.

Posted by: Greg | September 18, 2007 3:03 AM

Thanks. I will be using this article at our next hash here in Damascus. I'm sure it will be the subject of great amusement to fellow hashers and possibly some embaressment to our US hash members.

Posted by: Kip | September 18, 2007 7:46 AM

Well, I was truly hoping this story would have a happy ending by now. You see, I am an American working overseas. When this story hit the German press, I became the "expert" on Hashers and Americans, as I am both. While I can easily explain the concept and traditions of Hashing, I am embarassed and left speechless when it comes to explaining how CT is able to do something so completely rediculous, in an international forum. Please, please, please, put an end to this folly, so those of us who need to be taken seriously while working and living in an overseas environment can get back to discussing issues of importance instead of trying feebly to defend the indefensable. Seriously folks, you've made us look rediculous long enough.

Posted by: maddog | September 18, 2007 8:44 AM

they should be free are we as a society now going after people who are having fun and staying in shape maybe they the officals should have joined in they would have had a blast community service nope FREE them now

Posted by: Hash House Mailer | September 18, 2007 9:00 AM

Me and my friends play a game where we anonymously mail white powdery substances to commenters on newspaper websites. If you recieve a package in the mail, don't allow it to cause you alarm, just chalk it up to those wacky Hash House Mailer's shenanigans. My apoligies if you are not familiar with this tradition, your ignorance is not my fault. I hope you will all support me with the same vigor you feel in this case, as none of this is done with any intended malice. [/sarcasm]

Posted by: sherpes | September 18, 2007 11:57 AM

The idea of having a city-supported event is great. It will attract many out-of-city people, and out-of-state folks as well. As a fund raiser, it will benefit the city of NH. Not to mention the tax revenue from sales of food by the visitors. Kudos to the city administration for turning this unfortunate incident into an innovative conclusion. BTW, having people in a running event walk/run in city neighborhoods is a great crime deterrent, and many cities see the benefits. Many runners carry cell phones, and if they witness a crime in progress, they will dial 911.

Posted by: Rain B. | September 18, 2007 12:44 PM

The idea of charging these good people for laying a flour trail is as preposterous as charging Hansel and Gretel for leaving a trail of breadcrumbs in the woods. Both are as harmless as the other.

As ThorTW (hiya Thor!) said, this WAS over-reaction, borne of an atmosphere of fear. Why perpetuate fear, and punish innocent people by making them perform community service.

The bottom line is these people did nothing wrong! The fear-mongers in the Ikea are the ones who did something wrong. Maybe they should be held accountable?

Posted by: thronedoggie | September 18, 2007 3:23 PM

Excuse me, folks, but I think maybe we're missing a point. (By "we" I mean "those of us who think that the city is dumber'n a bag of hammers for pushing this issue").

The problem isn't whether or not the hashers should do community service - the problem is that they are being prosecuted FOR A FELONY. I'd MUCH rather pay $4K in restitution than have a felony on my record; for the rest of my life, there won't be anyone walking behind me saying "Don't worry, that felony charge was just stupid". I'd have to live with it.

Posted by: Split Pussanality | September 18, 2007 7:27 PM

So if the punishment for dropping a biodegradable substance on the ground is 50 hours of community service, what's the equivalent for leaving beer cans or cigarette butts in the same place(non- or slowly-biodegradable items)? Comparable logic dictates at least a month in jail. Toss a whole case of empty bottles and really, you should be in solitary.

I used to be proud to say I was born and raised a Connecticut Yankee. Now, not so much.

Posted by: Flying Booger | September 18, 2007 10:35 PM

Hashing, in the form of harrier clubs, hare & hound clubs, and informal paper chases, has been around since at least the mid-1800s.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt, when he was a young father (and before he contracted polio), set paper chase runs on Campobello Island.

It's a harmless activity with a long history, practiced all over the world.

Just saying, is all.

Posted by: tim ealer | September 19, 2007 8:14 AM

I have been hashing for quite a few years now and all we are out to do is have fun. We never intend to incite Fear or terror. In fact its a way for us to relax exercise and have fun! Who would run around a parking lot throwing a white substance.in large quantities like that then come back and offer to eat it if it wasn't harmless!!! The people on scene ougt to be cited for ignorance and lack of common sense.maybe we should have the fire department respond every time someone throws a cigarette butt on the ground thinking their intent is to start a fire? Or maybe we should have the police respond and cite them for ättempt to commit murder for second hand smoke? How about some common sense people! We as a group come together not to invoke panic but to relax and have a good time.

Posted by: Sylvander | September 20, 2007 7:48 AM

The official hysteria in the United States knows no boundaries. Things like this made me reconsider my pondering the question whether I should move to the United States with my fiancée (from Boston). We decided to stay in the UK where common sense and civil liberties are a bit more highly regarded...

Posted by: Stephanie | September 21, 2007 9:14 AM

Despite the lesser error by the author that the runners were setting a race... it's not a race, it's a run. I've been hashing for over 10 years....

I take issue with this: "They acted irresponsibly in doing something they knew could have instilled fear," charged mayoral spokeswoman Jessica Mayorga Friday.

If it is someone devoid of any sense of common sense, anything can promote fear. If officials involved had a lick of common sense, then perhaps when Salchow offered to eat ir, or to sweep it away or clean it up might have triggered some thought that perhaps there was nothing wrong with the powder in question.

The world is alight with infinite possibilities. I don't think Salchow should be responsible for officials lack of common sense. Police, hazmat, and other officials should be the voices of reason and common sense in a situation. That's what they are paid for. The fact that this collective group of officials weren't in posession of common sense is not Salchow's responsibility.

No one can predict and prepare for this. I wouldn't have imagined it myself.

Posted by: Edward_H | September 21, 2007 2:47 PM

This incident is just another embarassament on this embarassment of a city. A typical overreaction by hayseed hick cops. This game has been played all over the world, including New York City , without incident but in New Haven it becomes a cause for alarm. I think these cops were more concerned with making some overtime than they were with public safety

Posted by: Matthew | September 23, 2007 11:59 AM

I am living and working in Central Europe and when I saw this reported in a local publication and heard the questions being asked of me about whether or not things like that really happen in America.....I almost wish I could say I was Canadian. It is sad to say that these things happen all the time in America.....and unless the American people stand up for their rights and refuse to fall for the fear mongering propaganda...things will only get worse...This is insane!!! When will people wake up and stop the insanity?? Everyone is so G*D DAM* afraid of everything these days. Common sense has been thrown out the window and been replaced with an "everything is a danger/report your neighbor to the police" mentality. While we would all be screaming if they did nothing, the response of the police and fire department was an over reaction and way out of line. Any thinking adult would have see the stupidity of the fuss in a matter of minutes. I fear the direction America is heading. We really ARE the laughing stock of the world.

Posted by: Dairy Queen / Sally | September 24, 2007 4:15 PM

This is just ridiculous. Everybody overreacted. Throwing blobs of flour on the ground is not a crime. It was the authorities who disturbed the peace, not the hashers. Our forefathers died for our right to be silly. What happened to liberty?
All charges should be dropped.
On-On
Dairy Queen

Posted by: viziondanz | September 26, 2007 1:44 PM

chalk4peace is an internationally recognised street art - chalk is harmless, extremely temporary and a heal;thy outlet/form of self expression - something that is really need especially for the youth these days.

who said it was all supposed to be grey all the time? - we are surrounded by corporate graffiti, most of it gaudy and exists only to manipulate/brainwash us into parting with our hard earned money

most public media is out of the reach of ordinary folk whereas the streets are fully accessible.

the police response was totally unnecessary and counter-productive if there is a true desire for a healthy culture
--
"There is nothing wrong with our world,
we are just having a weird conversation"
"Reclaim the conversation"
"Our New World Order IS Love
http://www.infinitepossibility.org

"when the conversation reaches critical mass, it transforms into ACTION"
..... Social Acupuncture
http://www.infinitepossibility.org/sa

The Synergy Project video
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5590384322623930783

"Celebration, Our Journey, Our Destination"
http://one.revver.com/watch/161159

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=viziondanz
http://www.myspace.com/viziondanz
http://www.myspace.com/chalk4peace

Dedicated to the child inside each one of us,
All the children and
All the children to come

Posted by: Count Roadkill | October 2, 2007 8:51 AM

Great to see so much support and sound thinking coming from so many people. This is restoring my faith in Americans. Please keep going, show your support and ensure a "not guilty" verdict. There must be no criminal record.

Also it was very moving to read C-Fest's father, what a pity he ran out of space. I'll try to find out what Truman said....

From the UK where support for the New Haven Two is widespread.

Posted by: Jon (aka Pulp) | October 3, 2007 5:54 PM

I too was picked up by police while laying a hash trail (post Anthrax scare). I had taken precautions and informed the local police department what I was doing. I even substituted sawdust for flour hense my hash name "Pulp Friction" (btw, flour is MUCH more efficient!)

Unfortunately my trail crossed from one jurisdiction to another in the Milwaukee suburbs and I was stopped and questioned for dispursing a "suspicious substance". The police were very cool about it and even let me finish the trail. Quite a different experience! Too bad the New Haven police weren't as nice.

I thought the Chicago incident would have been the last. Too bad it was not.