New Haven Independent

Posted by: on whalley | October 22, 2007 8:08 AM

So the Room 101 method has worked after all? Well, congratulations. But then "if only because it might prod the federal government, which has dropped the ball completely and is at a total standstill" hardly sounds like a "changed mind." He still wants the same thing he has always wanted he's just learned a cute "new speak" way of looking at it.

And of course we need to mind anyone who wants secure borders that they could be throwing away a chance at cheap labor: "I don't have a lot of money, and their work came a lot cheaper."

I love this: "government absolutely has a responsibility to provide health, education, and security and safety in retirement."
Since when, exactly? New Deal, SS inception, birth of the Federal Reserve? You know it wasn't that long ago that states suffering natural disasters would frown upon the federal governments intrusion. Now we have New Orleans that begs and pleads for a handout. Dust Bowl anyone? We used to get mad and sense intrusion when the President or Federal government would visit or observe, now we all expect it and applaud it. We have at least two generations alive right now who think retirement is some government guarantee. The statement she made is absolutely what's wrong with America or should I say Americans.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | October 22, 2007 8:57 AM

I was one of the 100 that participated in this. (I finely got to meet Allan). I thought it was wonderful. The id card was not really in question in my group, most understood it's purpose. We had a great group from all over and varied in options. I think the group I was in was more realistic. We realized boarder control is not going to happen. So then what?

We all agreed that it was all about the money! The Rich saving with cheap labor, poor resenting it because the immigrants were lowering the standard wage.
How do we get the government to do something now? (Either way?)
How do we get Americans to feel ok if we grant the people already here some kind of papers to stay? And how do we get them to understand by doing this would make things better for all.
We agreed that Americans are afraid of there own security,(health care, SSI, and chance to a decent wage) Some in the group were in the construction industry at one point or another and have seen what once was a Middle class job reduced to a low paying job. That scares people. One guy worked in an industry were the jobs were shipped over seas and to Mexico. And we felt that ,that is just as harmful to our economy.

How do we make this into something that the country can benefit from? while protecting these people and there rights as humans.
Health care number one topic on some of our minds, we need universal health care, we need SSI reform. If we can guarantee people (Americans) these things maybe that would take some worry off there minds.
When walking out of the room we all agreed to spread the word that the government needs to do something now. No more sitting on it. We agreed to write congress and senators, and to ask all we know to do the same. Now that went both ways. No matter what we belived in we agreed that it is time for the government to do something.

Posted by: JSJ | October 22, 2007 9:04 AM

I don't have a lot of money, and their work came a lot cheaper.

I am troubled by how frequently this argument is cited by those in favor of "assisting" undocumented workers. Was Ms. Smyth's Albanian painter bonded, licensed and insured? Would his possibly undocumented workers have been covered in the event of an accident or injury while on her job? I cannot help but get the impression that this issue is less about helping immigrants than it is about maintaining a sanitized version of slave labor.

Posted by: PowertothePeople | October 22, 2007 9:40 AM

You make a good point, CedarHill. I rarely hear anyone complain about loosing their job to an undocumented immigrant but I have TONS of friends whose jobs were sent overseas. Their "illegal" status is what makes it possible to exploit them. Maybe if we make it possible for them to start paying taxes like the rest of us they'll stop trying to come here. Wages would go up for everyone too.

Or how about we keep the hardworking, law abiding undocumented folks and deport our documented criminals to other countries. We could put our murderers, rapist and crooked politicians on a boat and push them out to sea towards South America and let them make it on their own. Good way to reduce our prison population.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | October 22, 2007 11:42 AM

JSJ
I agree that is the problem. This is why the government needs to do something about this NOW!! It will allow these people to organize. To not be afraid of losing there work and to bring the pay scale up and hold the people they work for accountable!
One woman talked about a man she worked with that got a steam burn on his upper body and went back to work in 2 days because he had no choose! imagine having to work wrapped in bandages with burns all over your upper body! And the employer does not care because he knows that they are not (or can not) complain!

Posted by: Funny Truth | October 22, 2007 12:10 PM

Funny, That those who lose and are afraid of the poor migrants"undocumented, are those who lose their jobs to huge corporations, lets see a few examples,

IBM, Invested 2 BILLION$$ that is with a B in Bangalore India, guess what will happen when they close the factory in USA? They did not employ one "illegal or Undocumented person, Who will those fired blame??

Whirl pool close their factory in Boise Idaho 4500 people were let go, they had no "undocumented" labor , who are these 4500 people blaming ??
YOU GUESSED RIGHT, THE POOR "Illegal/ Undocumented.

Ford is closing 3 factories and letting people go , where are these people going to work and who's going to pay for their unemployment? YOU & ME. FORD DID NOT EMPLOY ONE UNDOCUMENTED/ILLEGAL PERSON.

The Corporations that are closing shop and outsourcing are Paying TAXES on their profits, so when they make a PROFIT THEY PAY TAXES. Even those who employ undocumented workers PAY TAX ON THEIR PROFITS. DO YOU GET THE PICTURE?? OR YOU ARE ONE WHO'S Car breaks down, blame the illegal,
Your wife left you, Blame the illegal,
Your House Burnt Down, Blame the Illegal,
Your Union FACTORY Closed down, blame the ILLEGAL,

Stop blaming others for your failures, Get educated to todays workplace requirements and get a profession that you will not be afraid to lose a dish washing, food picking, meat cutting, hotel room cleaning JOB to some poor person.

IF YOU AS AN AMERICAN DID NOT SUCCEED, ITS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PUT IN TE TIME & EFFORT TO LEARN AND ADVANCE YOUR LIFE AND FAMILY.

YES WE SHOULD CLOSE THE BORDERS, AND FIX THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.
GOD BLESS AMERICA, AMEN :)

Posted by: jackparis | October 22, 2007 1:00 PM

Way to go NHI!

Wish I had been there to see it...

Warmest,
N

Posted by: nfjanette | October 22, 2007 1:20 PM

The Corporations that are closing shop and outsourcing are Paying TAXES on their profits, so when they make a PROFIT THEY PAY TAXES. Even those who employ undocumented workers PAY TAX ON THEIR PROFITS. DO YOU GET THE PICTURE??

I do get the picture, but I see that's it is far more complex than you have described. You've neglected to explain the larger economic playing field in which those very corporations you note are paying little to no taxes depending upon the the location of the (off-shore) factories. If the government sets up the tax system in favor of off-shore work, what business can resist? Where does the fault lie in such a system?

I also know that many highly skilled American workers - such as information technology professionals - have lost their jobs as entire data centers and tech support centers have been moved to India and other locations. The people involved were generally college-educated, highly experienced workers. Does that fit the worker profile you've described? Not even close.

Posted by: True New Havener | October 22, 2007 3:02 PM

Hey NF -- seems like Funny Truth WAS making a complex argument and seems to have agreed with your position: "I also know that many highly skilled American workers - such as information technology professionals - have lost their jobs as entire data centers and tech support centers have been moved to India and other locations."

His/her "IBM, Invested 2 BILLION$$ that is with a B in Bangalore India, guess what will happen when they close the factory in USA? They did not employ one "illegal or Undocumented person, Who will those fired blame??" seems to exactly match your argument's concern for "generally college-educated, highly experienced workers."

So I guess I missed your disagreement. Seemed like you both were making cogent arguments that were not in opposition.

Posted by: eeddggy | October 22, 2007 3:20 PM

I am the person in the article that is refered to as the "Fox News Fan". In fact I do watch and listen to Fox and Rush Limbaugh along with many other conservative media. However, as not reported in the article, I also watch, read and listen to the mainstream liberal media, Air America, Randi Rhodes and countless other leftist sources.
You will never truly understand an issue unless you can listen to and try and understand all sides.
I want to make it very clear that I enjoyed the forum on Saturday but my view on illegal immigrants remains the same.
What Destefano has done is incite anarchy in an already fragile nation. I believe he should be arrested and processed through our legal system. There are many ways the illegal immigrant situation can be resolved without commiting a second crime. Shame on the New Haven mayor. A leader should never break a law(great example for our children) to gain favor with segment of society with certain beliefs. He should have thought of what is best for all his constituents and set a proper example as to effecting change in America. We are a land of laws that affords us our freedoms.
We all need to participate in correcting this problem through petitioning our local, state and national politicians. The system can work if we all participate instead of pointing fingers and belly aching. The time is now, to light the fire under what has quickly become the most ineffective Congress in American history.
Complaining has never gained positive results. Being actively involved has.

Posted by: Trudy Cartwright | October 22, 2007 3:46 PM

Funny truth? Not funny and not the truth.

Can I steal your mail? That's illegal.

Can I dump toxins into the stream behind your house? That's illegal.

Can I refuse to pay taxes? That's illegal.

But illegal immigration is ok? It is not. New Haven's acceptance of it is an insult to the LEGAL immigrants who've waited years to be processed as the law requires.

What else illegal will you permit?

Posted by: fairhavener | October 22, 2007 4:56 PM

"Citizens To Talk -- Yes, Talk -- About Immigration"

Really, "Talk"? Really "-- Yes Talk --"? Really?

Meaning, where "[a]fter participating in an experiment in "civic dialogue,"" a FOX news/Limbaugh fan comes out thinking the Municipal ID card is a good idea. Right. Either the so-called "experiment" really worked, or I have to seriously question this gentleman's allegiance (fanliness) to FOX news and Rush Limbaugh.

"The experts also disappointed citizen participant Steven Ivers (on the right), who wanted to know how decisions could be made if no one has solid statistics... "Without that kind of information, how in the world can informed decisions be made?""

Yeah where are the statistics? Where is the data? I keep seeing Matos' 3800 number pop up in every article. Is it still only 3800? What about the bank accounts? How many accounts have been opened? What about police reports? How many have been filed by someone with the ID card? It says right here, "more undocumented immigrants are coming forth in crime investigations." Yeah, you got a number for that too?

We have 3800 people out there with IDs. Surely there is something. Lets get some percentages on the cards worth. Guess what? WE WILL NEVER SEE THE DATA. Please prove me wrong.

I am a huge fan of Popper's "The Open Society and Its Enemies" (a lot of it anyway). But I am no fan of the Municipal ID. Or, arrogant, master class politicians' and their ilk.

Posted by: fairhavener | October 22, 2007 5:02 PM

"Fox News Fan Changes Mind On ID Cards"

DOES NOT EQUAL

"...watches Fox News and listens to Rush Limbaugh..."

DOES NOT EQUAL

"In fact I do watch and listen to Fox and Rush Limbaugh along with many other conservative media. However, as not reported in the article, I also watch, read and listen to the mainstream liberal media, Air America, Randi Rhodes and countless other leftist sources."

Unless this guy is faking being the guy...

NHI, SHAME ON YOU. Really, that is distasteful.

Posted by: True New Havener | October 22, 2007 6:45 PM

EDGGY --

Too bad you cheapen the dialogue with comments like this one:

"What Destefano has done is incite anarchy in an already fragile nation. I believe he should be arrested and processed through our legal system."

You say we should all be involved in our political system, yet you then so poison the public conversation with comments like these that lots of people simply tune out. This screeching, instead of making reasoned arguments has become par for the course for the nut job right and keeps Dobbs making money for the once proud CNN.

Too bad since you seemed to have reasonable things to say about political involvement and the failure of the federal government. By forcing me to choose sides instead of engage in reasoned debate -- I stop listening to you. And I choose the other side.

If you look around after awhile you may find that in the land of screechers, you are surrounded by people whose views you may otherwise find too hateful to comprehend.

There are lots of people who have opinions on all sides of the immigration debate who manage to articulate them without spewing nonsense not meant to move the debate forward.

DeStefano gets elected by the people of the city every 2 years. If they did not want him, they would vote for someone else. Many of them do. This is not "anarchy," it's democracy.

Aside from getting elected, there is a reason he is not in prison as you desire, and that's because his actions (and those of a nearly unanimous board of aldermen) are entirely legal.

Your comments were beyond the pale -- too bad this site does not have some standards in this regard.

Posted by: THREEFIFTHS | October 22, 2007 6:49 PM

How Come We Can Help Illegal Immigrants With All Type Of Social Services And We Can Not Help Amercan Citizens Who Come Out Of Prison And Are Here Legal. Also For Those Who Keep Saying That The Illegals Do The Jobs That Americans Will Not Do, So Do Scrabs That Cross Picket Lines When Americans Go On Strike To Fight For Fair Wages!!
Last Google In This Name Carlos Slim Helu And Than Petition The Mexican Government And Ask Them Why He Does Not Provide Emploment For The People.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | October 22, 2007 7:35 PM

fairhavener
I was part of this to and we all know were I stand. This was not about the ID card. It was part of it but this discussion group was being held around the country in 9 other city's. Our sister city in this was in Nebraska. It was to talk about the whole immigrant situation in the country. You had people from both end of the coin here. All with different views. we were but in smaller groups to talk it through and see each others points of view on undocumented workers in the us. The group that Allen was with must of talked about the ID card alot. My group talked about solutions that all Americans would be able to accept as a whole. And ways to make it happen. We were more concerned with a people being used and abused. About Americans job security feeling threatened. About the wage level of our society being demised while the government sits there and allows this to happen. That the fact the the out sourcing is what is really hurting our country. That the lack of medical to the middle class is growing.

So yea see Allen's story was based on the one group he was with but there was 9 other groups with totally different conversations evolving within them.

There is a follow up on this on Nov. 19 at the Wilson Branch Library. Which all that participated were invited to come to.

Posted by: dman | October 22, 2007 11:00 PM

I don't know when we are going to realize we can't take care of everyone, everywhere. Even a country as great as the United States will not be able to expend resources to everyone on earth. We need to concentrate on our own country. It doesn't mean we should not lend a hand and do our best to help other nations or their people. It does mean that we should use the laws we have written so they are not just words in books. Sometimes we have to make hard choices not based on emotion. We all feel sorry for these people but the law is the law. If you think their labor is cheap wait until they have an accident working for you and there is no insurance. It is You who will be paying. They could conceivably OWN you house. Would that be worth the money you saved. New Haven is out of control not adhearing to the law and it should not be tolerated. We should secure our boarders and deport any alien with a criminal record. ...

Posted by: eeddggy | October 23, 2007 4:16 PM

I am replying to TRUE NEW HAVENER!
You state that I have "cheapened the dialouge". Please explain why you feel this way. My guess is you do not understand what ANARCHY is.
Destefano has decided he does not like the Federally imposed law of the land and has encouraged others to scoff at it.

YOU CAN NOT BREAK THE LAW WITHOUT REPERCUSSION.

I understand in the case of the illegal immigrants that some people feel it is more of an humanitarian issue and laws do not matter in these cases. WRONG!
Our personal "feelings" do not matter when it comes to a very clear law.
As a side note, I have no prejudice against any race, and specifically the Mexican race. In my experience, on a whole, they are hard working, family loving careing people like most any other group of human beings.
However, noone is above the law.
That is the simple point. America is not a "socialistic commune", it is a land of laws for very good reason.
America's arms are open to all people who appreciate freedom and contributing to the country. And yes I do feel the Mexican race is a wonderful asset to America as many other races are.
To summarize, all people are welcome here who want to contribute and reap the benefits of America, but there are specific requirements that must be followed. Most importantly following the law of the land. If you consider this "screeching", to use your word,then you are quite ignorant and must have a different agenda.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | October 23, 2007 6:40 PM

eeddggy
I am not a big Johnny fan at this time BUT I give him credit for this.... when the federal government will do NOTHING to enforce there laws and let a people in to be use as cheap labor (yes LET).... My Mayor did something to make MY CITY safer for all. I find it to a bigger statement as well, WE THE PEOPLE want you to do something.
Sanctuary cities are growing in number all for many reasons but the main one is to Demand change!
Almost every state has them some have alot. So it is not just New Haven.
Do you have a way to guard the boarders?? Build the great wall of china in Mexico and Canada?? And it is not just Mexicans..why does everyone keep saying that?? I know several people and NOT ONE is Mexican.
I say we need to start looking a what Europe is doing with this problem. They seem to being pretty go the Euro is getting stronger, Open boarders with some rules.

Posted by: eeddggy | October 26, 2007 3:23 PM

Reply to CEDARHILLRESIDENT.
I reluctantly agree with you that Destefano has done something that will hopefully get Congress of their rear ends. Morally I have a problem with how far we go to reach "the ends justifying the means".
In my heart I do not believe that the mayor did this to draw attention to the problem, but more so to appear sympathetic, and receive votes from the bleeding hearts. However, if turning New Haven into a sanctuary city spurs our Goverment to enforce the law, I applaud a quick response.
Past generations never relied on the Goverment(us) to pay their bills and make life easy.

In my eyes the Democrats have taken a very bad turn from the days of JFK. JFK is the one who so eloquently stated "ask not what your country can do for you but what YOU can do for your country".
It seemed people in my group Saturday seemed to feel we should open our wallets to anyone who manages to sneak into our country.
I'm tired of the, very debateable, arguement that the illegals have added so much to the community and we need to make them comfortable emotionally and financially.

All we ask is that you please follow the rules(laws) and then we are, as always, accepting with open arms.
Sorry to be so longwinded CEDARHILL and I may have strayed a little from you point, but I have, as well as most of us who care, a lot to say about the issue. I appeciate this forum where we can all express and share our opinions in a civil manner. Have a great weekend.