New Haven Independent

Posted by: DingDong | October 2, 2007 6:01 PM

Trying to argue that overcoming buses' negative environmental impact and negative image is easier or better than installing a fixed-rail streetcar is frankly misguided. A large part of the problem with buses is that they are hard to read on because they are a lot less smooth. No matter what you do, this can't be changed. Moreover visitors and new residents (among them, new students) are less likely to take to take them because they won't have seen the positive advertizing and the routes are much less clear sine there are no tracks to be seen. And frankly, there's a whole lot of negative stigma to be overcome, so that by the time you've paid for all the advertizing, you might as well have just put in a better transit system.

Streetcars can be cheap. Kenosha, WI just put one in for $3 million/mile, most of which came from federal funds. This is probably a record low price, but it's possible. In the long-term, operational costs are roughly equal to buses on smaller systems and considerably cheaper in larger systems. Also, bus routes do little to increase land value, while cities with recently-installed streetcars (Little Rock, Newark, Minneapolis, Charlotte and many, many more) have seen commercial and residential property values sky-rocket around the lines. This is itself is proof of the superior quality of streetcars and, also, an argument that they may pay themselves off better than buses.

Finally, people travelling on public transit are doing the city a favor by reducing traffic, doing the country a favor by reducing oil consumption and doing the world a favor by reducing pollution. Why shouldn't they deserve the best possible form of public transportation?

So what are we waiting for?

Posted by: king james v | October 2, 2007 6:04 PM

Recently i became a casual bus rider when my car was being worked on for a few days. Here are my observations on taking the bus for the first time in ten years.
1. i kind of liked it because i got to read and didn't have to park or buy gas.
2. there are absolutely no places to sit or get out of the elements, save two spots downtown. how can that be?
3. the bus driver was a ... he was less than pleasurable when i presented him my transfer when i was (gasp!!) OUT OF THE TRANSFER ZONE - which it says noting about on the transfer.
while i can go from downtown to the hamden plaza 157 times a day, i can only go up state street past the dmv until 6pm, and not at all on weekends.
the bus can and should be an easy alternative to driving to work, school and play, but it is not. we don't need a $2billion light rail system, or a monarail, clean, safe buses with a full schedule will do, but it seems the powers that be are doing everyting they can to kill mass transit.

Posted by: dylan | October 2, 2007 6:49 PM

Alderwoman Sturgis-Pascale is absolutely right. While the state may be making efforts to use cleaner buses, this does not address the biggest problem with buses. The greatest benefit of a fixed streetcar or trolley system (these are not light rail - most importantly, light rail uses a separate right of way, quite different from trolleys that run in existing streets) is the confidence it brings with it.

This confidence is two fold.

Bus routes may be fixed, but their physical presence is ambiguous, keeping most choice riders from being aware and riding the bus. As Erin noted, statistics from cities resurrecting trolleys, show that ridership can go up as much as 500% when compared to buses.

This rider confidence and presence of more than only the transit dependent gives confidence to developers. Development spurred by a fixed rail system takes the shape of a much more pedestrian friendly environment. Thus, the population becomes less auto-dependent, compounding the initial positive effects of rail.

Not to mention that increased presence of choice riders can help people like the disabled and elderly feel much more safe while using transit.

New Haven was built on a system of over 100 miles of streetcar. If New Haven wants to function as a city, it needs to actlike one. If we really feel it is important to cut down on fossil fuels, promote tight/intimate/walkable communityes, and curb suburban sprawl, as well as offer reliable options to the transit dependent, the City and State need to begin heeding the advice of the Alderwoman from Ward 14

Posted by: charlie | October 2, 2007 9:36 PM

Light rail would be awesome and much, much better than buses (there are hundreds of studies on this, the problem is that the car/oil lobbies prefer buses and like to kill light rail/streetcar projects... just visit any small city in Europe to see the difference), but only along limited routes. The best routes would run from the train station, to downtown, then either out Whalley Avenue into Westville, up Dixwell into Hamden, or out Grand Avenue to Fair Haven and perhaps Tweed Airport. The simplest solution: Raise the gas tax so that users pay for for highways instead of subsidizing them so much. The reason there's only chump change for mass transit (and the reason we all have to suffer with the environmental degradation caused by that fact) is because the highway system is so heavily subsidized.

Posted by: DEZ | October 2, 2007 9:56 PM

Yes for the street car, yes to light rail! I visited Portland Oregon this summer for a conference and was amazed that I could go from airport gate to downtown hotel on the light rail system, which works both on the street and in a separate track system. Portland has streetcars as well. The system was clean, user-friendly, cheap, and was a perfect fit for this very pedestrian city, much like New Haven. It is high time to "get back to basics" with the re-introduction of the street car. Go into any book store and look for the Branford Electric Railway System book on New Haven Streetcars. It is amazing the system that New Haven had at one time, one that worked into the adjoining towns. Knowing some New Haven streets, I'm sure the tracks are still there just below the surface. (the pictures are cool too!) If I didn't like Fair Haven so much, it would only be a pleasure to live in a city like Portland! As I've said before, a city that hosts one of the top universities in the world should be at the forefront of issues such as green design, public transportation, and traffic calming. Nap times over, Wake up New Haven!

Posted by: umm yea | October 2, 2007 10:15 PM

The biggest problem with the New haven bus system is that only the lowest common denominator would even think of getting on one. No one cares how eco-friendly they are. If your on a NH bus its a last resort. I'd be willing to bet less people making over 45K a year have been on a bus in last 10 years then will sign up for the city id card in the next 30.

Posted by: DingDong | October 3, 2007 12:37 AM

Here's what Michael Piscetelli wrote before the meeting. I strongly encourage anyone who thinks a streetcar is a good idea to send him a short e-mail or even a phone call. He is one of the powers that be and I think, if he sees enough popular support, he would be willing to push for a streetcar here.

"Some of the City's priorities include a (1) new "cross town west
route", (2) more frequent service on major bus lines, (3) improvements
to the downtown shuttle / trolley program and, (4) a new streetcar
initiative. Elected officials, Connecticut Department of Transportation
representatives and state transit advocates will be on hand to listen to
your comments and concerns. If you have any questions, please do not
hesitate to call me at (203) 946-8067 or to RSVP, please call (877)
926-8300.

Michael Piscitelli, AICP
Director
Transportation, Traffic and Parking Department
City of New Haven
200 Orange St., Ground Floor
New Haven, CT 06510
(203) 946-8067
FAX 946-8074
MPiscite@newhavenct.net

Posted by: Bruce | October 3, 2007 9:30 AM

New Haven's bus system is underutilized in some regions not because of bad public image, but because of a second bus system that offers free rides for the affluent so that they don't have to mix with the rif raf. Seems to me that there must be a solution to this wasteful redundancy. It kills me to see those big diesel school buses carting around one or two people around East Rock at 50 mph.

Dingdong, I've never had a problem reading on a bus. I think putting in streetcars would be overkill. We are already in crisis mode with some of the highest taxes in the country -- how can we afford a multi-billion dollar rail system?

Finally a note to Mr. Schulman: A three-legged stool will not wobble no matter how uneven the legs become. Three points define a plane.

Posted by: JSJ | October 3, 2007 9:57 AM

I'm a frequent bus rider because the local route gets me to and from work, practically door-to-door. And I do not fit UMM YEA's twisted stereotype of a typical bus rider.

A wise person once told me (and I'm probably going to mangle this up somehow) that the bus needs to be the transportation of choice, instead of the transportation for people with no choice.

In order for that to happen, CT Transit needs to do their share. I've frequently found myself waiting nearly an hour for a bus that was supposed to arrive every 15 minutes. If I had a job that required me to be there at a certain time, I'd have lost it by now by relying on the bus.

I've gotten on buses that inexplicably sit at a downtown stop for 15 minutes or more, throwing it completely off schedule. If I had to pick up a child from school or daycare at a specific time, I'd have a real problem on my hands.

I've had wonderful experiences on the bus and ones that made me wish I'd walked that day, instead. I've met a huge number of kind and compassionate people I would never have encountered otherwise and I've found myself in too-close proximity to others who, to put it gently, showed neither kindness nor compassion. I've discussed books, Macy's and street poetry, helped mothers manage children and strollers and had money returned to me when it fell out of my pocket. Least common denominator? UMM, NO. This is just real life.

Posted by: DingDong | October 3, 2007 10:33 AM

Where is this multi-billion dollar number coming from? Roughly $8 million/mile is a pretty standard cost for construction of a steetcar project. 20% is almost guaranteed to be covered by the Feds, 50% is a more common amount. The state and town would have to come up with much of the rest. (A half-cent in-town sales tax would probably cover most of this). Operating costs are roughly the same, if you have levels of ridership that could be reasonably expected in New Haven (current bus ridership + 30% new riders).

If you include the increased taxes from the higher land-values, there really is no reason not to think that the busiest one or two bus routes would be actually be cheaper than a streetcar in the long term.

I'm not sure where we've gotten the impression streetcars are so expensive. They aren't high-tech. New Haven used to be criss-crossed with them until 1948 (when the last one closed down). And think about it: other parts of the world, includings one without much money (like Eastern Europe) are full of them.

Posted by: dylan | October 3, 2007 10:50 AM

Bruce,
You're absolutely right about the two tiered system going on in East Rock. But don't you think that the presence of this second system is response to an image problem (of course, it then exacerbates it)? This is why it'd be so important to get Yale's Office of New Haven and and State Affairs involved. Of course this two tier system is not the case with the vast majority of the city to the south, west, and east. While I praise those who ride the bus to work (no, I'm not a hypocrite, I take a bike) the vast majority of those with choice still have an aversion to it.

Furthermore, uprooting the entire bus system would be expensive, but not a multibillion dollar endeavor. Light rail can cost $25 million per mile, but that isn't what New Haven needs, or even has the density to sustain on a very broad scale. Streetcars have been put in around the country for between $3 million and $15 million per mile, and the higher end of that is largely a result of building completely new roads or getting fancy with marble curbs or imported palm trees (like in san francisco) - none of which New Haven needs.

Not only is this not a multi (or even one) billion dollar project, but the whole system does not need to uprooted all at once. The best way to go would be to strategically replace bus routes with trolleys (again, not light rail) on streets like Whalley and Grand Avenues, Whitney Ave, Chapel Street, and as a connection to Science Park, the Hospital, and the Train Station. If these routes are successful, both in terms of ridership and attracting more dense, sustainable development (something important not only to the city, but the whole state), then perhaps further expansion could be considered.

Posted by: nfjanette | October 3, 2007 1:13 PM

I'm a fan of whatever mass transportation solution makes sense for the given parameters. Rail makes sense when you have a large number of riders and access to right-of-ways that are separated from regular streets. The Metro-North RR run from New Haven to NYC is the perfect example, and the Shoreline East service is a good idea as well, although it could use more frequent service and more ridership.

The proposed commuter rail service between New Haven and Hartford is a good idea, although it may struggle for ridership like the Shoreline East (at first) if there are not frequent enough scheduled trains to make the service a viable option for commuters. The right of way for that North-South line unfortunately does have numerous street grade crossings and I would like to see DOT projects to reduce the number as much as possible. If ridership grows enough it might make sense to install overhead electrical lines for the same type of trains used by Metro-North for the NYC line.

Nostalgia is fun - I have many of the books about New Haven streetcars and the old New York, New Haven, and Hartford RR. However, streetcars make little sense as a modern solution for local New Haven transportation needs. They often share the right-of-way with road vehicles, which is a Bad Idea. They travel on fixed rails, which means they almost totally lack the flexibility of buses to detour in the event of road accidents/issues. They similarly lack the flexibility to easily define new routes.

The best solution for inner-city mass transportation will continue to be largely based upon buses. They should be actively implementing alternate-fueled vehicles; lower emission diesel is an improvement over the current beasts, but electric or hybrid power would be even better.

Posted by: Stephen H | October 3, 2007 1:57 PM

I own a car and it does serve as my primary means of transportation. I occasionally use the bus when venturing downtown to save on parking.

Prior to getting my BA public transportation, friends, parents, and my feet were the way to get around.

I currently work in Seymour and have used the bus once to get to work (trial run). I tried a second time and failed! I was at my stop 15 minutes early and the bus never came. The next bus arrived 5 minutes later than its schedule and I missed the hourly connection downtown. I had to double-back and take my car to work.

I have also found some drivers to be totally unprofessional. There are also some GREAT drivers in New Haven. I would much rather see/hear/deal with the latter. There is nothing like more than a driver who asks you how work was?

I can do without a driver (like one I have had) that spent 30 minutes ranting and raving about how evil white people are and how wonderful Al Sharpton is. How attractive is that to a professional?

I think trolley, subway, light rail are expensive options for New Haven. It would take years to implement and would cost a ton.

A common sense approach is in order here. First they should increase service, re-tool/add routes, order more buses, and add more commuter/express services.

They should also look at adding articulated buses on some routes and look at the feasibility of a BRT line.

Posted by: dylan | October 3, 2007 2:04 PM

This is not about nostalgia.

Dozens of cities across the country are using or pursuing streetcar systems. Admittedly some of these began as cute nostalgia gimicks. And yes, it would be the resurrection of an old idea (that happens to have not gone away and been quite modern in other parts of the world). Call it nostalgia if you want to, but this is about a proven track record of improved ridership and growth of pedestrian friendly cities rather than a sprawled out suburbia into the countryside.

You site the flexibility of buses as a strength, It is this very flexibility and resulting ambiguity and uncertainty, not emissions and gas efficiency, that are their greatest weakness.

If Portland's 1800%, Tampa's 900%, and Kenosha's 2300% development return on streetcar investment is nostalgic, then maybe I wouldn't mind going back to the future.

Posted by: Stephen H | October 3, 2007 2:05 PM

What is this so called "two tierd system" in East Rock? School Buses? Affluent?

Posted by: fairhavener | October 3, 2007 2:14 PM

"Finally a note to Mr. Schulman: A three-legged stool will not wobble no matter how uneven the legs become. Three points define a plane."

Nice catch Bruce.

Also, if you need a ride and are near Yale campus, pick up a Yale phone, and tell them where you are and that you need a ride home and a bus will come pick you up. It's open 24/7. The only catch is it's supposed to be for Yale citizens (but they don't ask for ID). (Or is this the bus system you are talking about?)

Streetcars would be awesome.

Posted by: king james v | October 3, 2007 2:47 PM

Again, a streetcar / lightrail / rocketship-hoovercraft system would be way way cool, and i would ride it all day long. It wouldn't be built in my lifetime though, and it would probably be bulit to go between two worthless points.
Let's remember here, this is a city in the midst of building a $1.3billion bridge less than two miles long, that will take 12 years +++ to build. Who exactly thinks we can get it done. and what happens when Hamden, West Haven and east haven try to get their hands into the federal money box?
I lived in Sacramento for 7 years. Sacramento has a light rail service that works because it's a sprawling city that brings commuters into town from the suburbs, and has many commuter parking spots along it's way into and out of the city - much like Portland's. The riders in Sacramento are mostly from Placer county, Folsom or Northern Sacramento county. The folks in town take the bus.
New Haven has the shoreline east already, and a northern commuter train would be a great addition, but the folks in new haven don't need it. The Dixwell, Whalley, Whitney and congress ave routes are pretty well served, and run regularly. There is no need to dig up these busy streets to put in a new rail system. Where would you put the cars, how will an untrustworthy city government abuse emminant domaine? It's too bad the trolleys were killed by the automakers, but they are gone.
Put up some weather shelters, get some of those big "accordian" type superlong busses, maybe even electrify parts of downtown to put the electric/ biodiesel hybrid busses. And get beter service on the underserved routes. Or maybe we can all get those "segway" things - they look pretty cool.

Posted by: transituser | October 3, 2007 2:58 PM

For all of you who would like a light rail system there was a way to put one in--on the abandoned Farmington Canal Railroad and other abandoned railroad tracks. But you all wanted one million dollars a mile "rails to trails" linear paths to take mostly recreational walks and bike rides, not wanting to use existing state and city parks.

In Long Island and elsewhere they do have groups that are preserving railroad lines like groups around here preserve old buildings. These folks are developing these abandoned railroad tracks for commuter light rail.

Posted by: Bruce | October 3, 2007 3:04 PM

I am talking about the Yale system. I can understand the need to give students rides on call in the middle of the night, but during the morning and all day, the buses (I believe) run regular routes. And these routes follow right along some of the same paths as CT Transit routes.
Yale is going to do what it wants to make its students feel safe, I recognize that. However, the fact remains that we have two bus systems running the same routes at the same times. It is just inefficient.

As for the streetcars, we already have a downtown "streetcar" loop -- those electric trolleys. They are free to ride and, to put it kindly, they're hardly filled to capacity. Why would we think tethered streetcars would be any different? I am a huge supporter of public transportation (second to non-motorized transportation), but I just don't see how new expensive technology is going to increase ridership.

Let's look at the costs in terms of the people who would pay for it. Let's say that this will cost $1 billion and half of that comes from federal funds. If there are 70,000 taxpayers in New Haven, this will cost about $7,000 each. Do you have an extra $7,000 sitting around? You're welcome to check my numbers (educated guesses), but I think this is a fairly conservative estimate. It would probably be cheaper to triple the current bus routes.

Posted by: Stephen H | October 3, 2007 3:19 PM

Bruce is right. Why wait several years and go thru a bunch of hearings, delays, tax dollars, and god knows what else? to improve transit in New Haven.

Solution is simple increase funding for buses and we will see an improvement in a few months as opposed to a quarter century.

I really think some people here have had the same "bad granola" that our Board of Aldermen have been feasting on. Instead of using common sense some people in this town are having "magical fantasies".

Posted by: mindoflen | October 3, 2007 4:45 PM

A couple of things: First, I am for mass transit...when we travel, my wife and I almost never rent a car but use subways, trolley cars, buses and the like.
Having said that, I'm not sure New Haven is ready for light rail. We have old or abandoned rail lines that are now walking paths or bike paths or what have you. When we were figuring out what to do with these routes a couple of decades ago, the few bleating in the wilderness about mass transit were shouted down by the bike riders, walkers, roller skaters and the like.
Being an observant Jew, I walk to synagogue on Saturdays and holidays and see the B bus or the Q bus, a huge vehicle, drive by on Fountain Street with a few and more often no passengers. Do we need these huge vehicles to operate on the weekend?
As far as Connecticut drivers using mass transit (read trains), many do to New York or down the line in Fairfield County. By the way, there is a bus shelter at Fountain and Ramsdell streets.
As far as many of our fellow citizens, they would rather sit in their cars than car pool or take mass transit.(pls see mindoflen.blogspot.com on that subject)
Why, we can't even keep an airport going in New Haven without political wrangling, so how are we going to convice the feds to give us money for trolley cars. I fear the only trolley cars we'll see are in the museum, if we can get there over the Q bridge.

Posted by: pedro | October 3, 2007 5:30 PM

I don't see these things as being "magical fantasies", they are simply the result of people who want to think big. There is a place for BOTH improving bus systems AND dreaming up light rail alternatives. I don't think they are mutually exclusive.
People feel a TREMENDOUS psychological difference between streetcars and buses..one that should not be discounted as merely being wishful thinking.

Posted by: Daniel Sumrall | October 3, 2007 5:37 PM

Something to think about mass transit-wise is the idea of Personal Rapid Transit. The notion was kicked around a few years ago nationally and then lost steam, but I think it would be practical in our city context. There are some websites that can give you a sense of the idea--

http://www.personalrapidtransit.com/

http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/prtquick.htm

http://kinetic.seattle.wa.us/prt.html

http://advancedtransit.org/doc.aspx?id=1061

http://www.taxi2000.com/

I know to some this seems pie-in-the-sky and Jetson-like, but approached from a pragmatic and fiscally responsible perspective this could work well for us.

Something to think about.

Posted by: Bruce | October 4, 2007 12:33 PM

Daniel, I think these systems probably would work well in a big state park or amusement park, but I have a hard time seeing how these could be practical in New Haven. Based on the PersonalRapidTransit website, this will cost about $25 million per mile. How many miles would a realistic system entail? We're probably talking about hundreds of millions of dollars for the initial cost. We don't have that kind of money.

Posted by: Stephen H | October 4, 2007 1:51 PM

I think a lot of folks here are missing the point.

The meeting was about how the city/state could improve bus service in New Haven. Most of the riders were concerened about how they are going to get to work as opposed to how to build a massive rail system.

Bus riders want improvements in the present not in the distant future. Changes along the lines of re-working routes, adding routes, and adjusting schedules.

Posted by: DingDong | October 4, 2007 5:16 PM

Obviously short-term improvements are good. But thinking just short-term doesn't get you very far beyond, well, the short-term.

But as far as the meeting's purpose, it wasn't just short term. Take a look at what Michael Piscitelli called the four priorities of the City to discuss at the meeting (particularly, item 4):

"Some of the City's priorities include a (1) new "cross town west
route", (2) more frequent service on major bus lines, (3) improvements
to the downtown shuttle / trolley program and, (4) a new streetcar
initiative.

I think one trolley line is hardly a massive construction program. First of all, no one I think is actually arguing for the city to commit funds to this. They are arguing for the city to commit funds to study this. Then we can make a decision if it is worth spending however much it would cost.

Also, it's time to get this $1 billion figure out of the conversation. At $8million/mile, that buys you roughly 125 miles of streetcars. Portland, OR, with the nation's most extensive streetcar and light rail network has 43 miles. In New Haven, I think we'd be starting with at most 10 miles (from Union Station to DT then along the most heavily used bus route -- Dixwell Avenue). So that's $80 million total. Figure in the federal and state contributions and its really in the ballpark of like $10 million at most for the city. At most! It could be much less.

Posted by: transituser | October 5, 2007 11:55 AM

Two practical not overly expensive uses of new techonology:

**Segway use on the rails to trails paths--requiring a change in a 2003 law that limits their use among non-government people to the disabled
**GPS information of bus arrival times on video screens at key bus stops outside of the downtown hub--as I have seen in Rockville, MD

As for big empty buses, transit lines are like other services our taxes pay for--roads, parking lots, parks, playgrounds, schools, libraries, beaches, state and local service offices--that have irregular usage patterns.

Posted by: Anstress Farwell, New Haven Urban Design League | October 6, 2007 1:56 PM

You are welcome to come to our Annual Meeting and continue this great conversation when Michael Piscitelli comes to speak on "Transportation and the Sustainable City" at our Annual Meeting, Monday, October 15, 5:30-7 PM, at the Neighborhood Music School, 100 Audubon Street. Mr. Piscitelli will discuss transportation policy, traffic and parking, mass transit, the port district, and the development of Tweed New Haven airport. Come share your thoughts and ideas! The meeting is open to our members and the public. Light refreshments will be served. Be sure to RSVP to: urbandesignleague@iconn.net