New Haven Independent

Posted by: ac | April 2, 2008 8:20 AM

Maybe we should be looking closer at how high school personnel are counseling ELL students who are facing difficulties academically. Are we finding them tutors, giving them material at their instructional level, and providing them with the support they need to be successful? I fear not.

A student I know personally, who graduated 3 years ago from a New Haven middle school, was basically threatened with removal of credits and retention due to attendance problems. She was legitimately sick and needed support not threats. Her mother eventually withdrew her because she felt helpless dealing with school personnel. She felt they were more concerned with test scores than with her daughter.

This young girl then began adult ed at the age of 17 and was the youngest in the class. As she now says she will never graduate with her class, will never experience her senior prom nor a senior trip/outing which she so desperately wanted to partake in. As she is a child of poverty she has few experiences outside of her neighborhood so these things were very important to her. It breaks my heart when I speak to her and she still regrets what happened. She will receive a GED but at what cost.

The Board of Education should take a closer look at those students who are quitting and interview them. We should be finding out why they are quitting? Why they are failing? As a teacher myself, I agree with the well spoken student from West Hills. Whether or not the powers to be want to admit it, the students and teachers do feel that most of what we do is practice and prep for the CMT, CAPT, and periodic District assessments. This leaves little time for things like literature circles, project work, writers workshops, computer education, field trips and some occasional time of task, otherwise known as "fun".

Any educator, student, or parent can tell you that this is not how we motivate students for success. By the looks of the test scores lately I can tell you that all of this practice is not producing higher scores. It is stressing kids out which rears it's head in many different ways in many different students. If you don't believe me, just talk to a student and have them share their experiences.

JMHO, AC

Posted by: John Tulin | April 2, 2008 9:58 AM

Everyone involved in Education agrees that NCLB and standardized tests are not what school should be about....but...

"The curriculum is not geared to the Hispanic community,"

Should it be?? What then about the non-hispanic community. Do the Poles, Turks, West Africans desrve their own curriculum as well? How about the curriculum is designed for the American community, the New Haven community. Gearing curriculum to one community, one that refuses to learn the language of the economy, would only hurt those students.

We see it everyday - kids speak no English at home or in their neighborhood, their parents don't bother with English, their classrooms are spanish-speaking, that's all they speak in the halls....and then they are supposed to pass the CAPT, the SAT, and apply to college - ALL OF WHICH REQUIRES MASTERY OF ENGLISH LIKE IT OR NOT!

If we want our students to suceed in college and the very competeitve workforce - then we need to stop coddling Latin students.

Work hard, learn English, and maybe you will suceed in America. It's a tough thing to do even for native English speakers, if it wasn't more people would be doing it.

A good thing to review - compare the scores and drop out rates the Chinese, Turks, etc and other non-native English speakers to that of the that of the spanish-speaking community. What accounts for the difference.

Posted by: NA | April 2, 2008 10:11 AM

AC, your last comment and I quote, "If you don't believe me, just talk to a student and have them share their experiences", this is exactly what we have overlooked for decades. We've been making decisions on their behalf without even making them part of this discussion. We need to let parents and children get involved in these decision making process and really do it. Everywhere I go, I hear "We want parents to get involved", but when parents really organize themselves, start asking questions, and take a stand... they start closing the doors.

Posted by: Hartford Johnson | April 2, 2008 10:52 AM

?Not geared to the Hispanic community," indeed.

More demands from an ethnic group to avoid joining in the larger American community.

Accomodation of this foolishness leads to a further splitting of the unity of the larger community, not to mention the nation.

Posted by: PD | April 2, 2008 11:07 AM

Based on your comments Mr. Tulin, You really have to grow up and look around you. Whether "You like it or not" English is not the dominate language of success or of business. Our country was built by those people who you said should learn English. Railroads, buildings and general infrastructure are still being built and maintained by those people. It is not just the Spanish language we are talking about. It is very callous of you to make comments for those things that have been built on the backs of Non-English speaking peoples for which you thoroughly enjoy. If this was your world we would all still be picking tomatoes and cleaning your house. Your ignorance and bias has showed us that we still have a lot of work to do with regards to Educating not just our kids but people like you. No one is talking about modifying the curriculum for the Hispanic community, the discussion was generally about acceptance of other cultures ability to learn and reflecting that sensitivity in all aspects of the education system. By the way your last comment "non-native English speakers to that of the that of the spanish-speaking community. What accounts for the difference" needs a little bit of grammatical work. Maybe we should develop a curriculum on the proper English way of posting racially biased comments. Look in the mirror, "Hermano" See you at the Taco Stand!

Posted by: Darnel | April 2, 2008 11:49 AM

"Padilla said she doesn't know the drop-out rate for students in New Haven schools."

Ms. Padilla, with that one statement, highlighted the problem with school leadership. How does a school board member not know the drop out rate? Doesn't it concern anyone that our school leadership doesn't know, or doesn't care to know?

Their constant attacks on testing is a red herring to avoid discussing the real problems, which are low test scores, high drop out rates, and kids graduating without the proper skills to succeed.

The slate needs to be wiped clean. Everyone, from the Mayor to the Superintendent to the school board members need to be replaced with an administration that focuses on finding solutions, not excuses.

Posted by: John Tulin | April 2, 2008 12:54 PM

PD Says: "If this was your world we would all still be picking tomatoes and cleaning your house"

PD you missed my point completely. If kids are not learning english and therefore not increasing their chances for post-high school sucess, picking tomatoes and cleaning houses is all they will ever do. That's what I was obviously speaking against - not for. Where in my post do you see that? Where is a racial bias?

If wanting sucess for all American children is a racial bias of mine....uhm, ok, I am guily. Ya got me!

On another note, Darnell is right on the money. Time to clean house around here, top to bottom.

Posted by: king james v | April 2, 2008 1:15 PM

And the bi-lingual / dual ed classes and schools are not geared towards phillipino, russian, liberian or sweedish immigrants. you know why? because they make a concerted effort to do whatever is necessary to LEARN THE LANGUAGE OF THE COUNTRY THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO MOVE TO. We're moving towards a situation that Canada had several years back when French speaking Quebec came withing 1% of spitting away from the other provences because of language. One language, one currency one government.

Posted by: SR | April 2, 2008 3:38 PM

Did anyone else notice how Commissioner McQuillan's interesting handling of funding during this conversation?

When the topic of school funding's source (property taxes) came up, he made sure to say that the problem is much more than that. I don't think anyone is contesting that, but his answer essentially wrote off the need to consider funding reform as a part of the conversation about Connecticut's failure to educate all its students.

When the topic of longer school days came up, with many people supporting lengthening school days to increase instructional time and other support for students (especially given the 3 weeks teachers lose per year for the CMT's), he claimed to fully support this but said the only obstacle is... money!

Am I the only one who sees the obviousness of his evasion and the solution to at least this piece of the larger problem?

Being no politician, just a simple educator, I'm sure there are all kinds of obstacles to this argument that I am oblivious to. In my naivete, however, this is what I see:

The wealthiest state in the union, which bases its education funding on local property taxes (as opposed to state), has the worst gap in achievement in the nation, and claims to not have enough money to extend the school day in order to right an education crisis that will quickly cripple the state if not addressed. Can we please, for once, exercise a little foresight, and act in the best interests of the community at large instead of just for our individual selves?

Posted by: FIX THE SCHOOLS | April 2, 2008 3:53 PM

Mr. Tulin, Please don't speak for everyone "involved with education". NCLB and standarized testing are not what school should be about, but in districts and schools where more children than not are testing below proficiency, intense remediation - informed by periodic testing is perfectly appropriate and necessary.

The problem with NCLB is that it is a one size law that does not fit all. For example, in a high performing district where 85% of children meet goal (and we should be talking about meeting the GOAL standard rather than the lower PROFICIENCY standard) drilling for CMTs for three weeks prior to the test is a poor use of time. In a high performing classroom the CMTs are at best a review for classes and at worst take the kids back for useless drilling. A waste of time.

But in a school where less than 30% of the children are even at proficiency, CMT drilling and prep. are precisely what the kids need! These kids don't have even the BASICS! Memorization, drills, are a form of skill development that all successful students experience. The good teachers will use the CMT diagnostic as a teaching aid to inform them as to who is not making the grade and why.

A good analogy is when you are sick. A healthy patient goes to the doctor and when the vital signs come back normal, things are good. The physician may recommend a healthy diet, or an excercise regimen - some kind of advice to maintain a healthy individual.

When you're sick, you are given the same regimen of tests - but the results are not good. You are then prescribed some medicine, or if you are sick enough, you are admitted to the hosipital where you may undergo intensive intervention or therapy. In that environment you are monitored constantly! How can good physicians treat you if they don't know exactly how you are responding to their treatment?? Wouldn't you be upset if you kept on feeling lousey and your doctor refused to offer a real diagnosis? Just take two aspirin and go home.

Similarly, the good teacher will want to have as much feedback (test results) on her students in order to know where the skill deficiencies exist, and what is working and not working in getting that child to goal (educational health).

Mr. Tulin, be honest, most public school educators dislike tests because they would rather not have accountability for results. High quality and frequent testing is needed in underperforming districts and schools.

Posted by: Ilyssa Delgado | April 2, 2008 8:30 PM

Mr. Tulin, no one ever said that the curriculum should be geared toward the hispanic community. All I said was that many latino students are being left behind by how fast the curriculum is going. That doesn't mean that the curriculum should be changed to "coddle" latin students or any other heritage, it means that the curriculum should be changed to meet all the needs of all the students within reason.Speaking a different language or coming from a different country doesn't mean you are any less of an American.

How would you feel if you moved to Brazil and are struggling to survive, let alone struggle to learn the language and someone told you to learn our language or go be a bum living on the streets? What if you went to a job interview after an entire month of studying the language and you still don't know what they are saying? That is the real world and as a matter of fact there are many sucessful latinos in America who became sucessful with out mastering the english language. So before you pass your judgements on my people think of how you would feel.

Besides that, I attend these schools every single day and see the struggles that all children(not just Latinos) go through, just trying to keep up with the expectations that adults like yourself put on us. Sacrificing quality education to be more competitive, works against us, not for us.

Posted by: AC | April 3, 2008 8:30 AM

I totally agree with the words of Ilysa in the previous post. It's ok to immigrate to this country but don't expect to get support learning the language? I have to say the many of the students do very well learning the language and I have had the pleasure to teach them. However, there are many who do not learn as easily and for them we need to support them. Do they not have to pay taxes to attend public school? Do we not owe them what we owe every other student? Have some of become so jaded that we have no compassion for the difficulties immigrants face every day in our city? Put yourself in their shoes and think about it.

Ms. Padilla, you seem like a compassionate person who wants the best for the latino students of New Haven. Do you visit the schools? Talk with the teachers? Get to know the students? I think that a big disconnect has occurred between the board, central office, and the schools.

Next, I speak for the teachers and the students/parents of our schools when i say, tests do not tell teachers what kids don't know. The everyday interactions, classwork, homework, assessments based on information studied and ongoing observations do that. The district and CMT/CAPT test just confirm what teachers already know and let those not in the know find out.

Lastly, for whoever said, "teachers don't want to be accountable to the tests" that is absolutely untrue. We want our students to succeed and do better. Why would we want our students to do poorly on the tests? Do you think we go to work each day to spend time playing around with children. No, we go to work each day to teach and make a difference in a child's life. Do you think we do this for the money? I dare say there are other professions out there for many of us who have completed 5 years of college and additional sixth year and doctorate work. We stay because of the children who need good teachers especially in urban areas such as New Haven.

AC

Posted by: John Padilla | April 3, 2008 9:49 AM

It's funny how some people can pounce on one word or phrase, and reveal much about themselves. As Ms. Delgado clearly explained above -- and by the way, this young lady is quite articulate -- the comment was about the fast pace of the curriculum because it is geared to the CMTs, not that the curriculum needs to be geared toward Latinos. Many students, not just Latinos, struggle to keep up. Latinos with a language barrier struggle that much more.

As for my wife's comment about the graduation rate, the full context is that no one truly knows the real drop-out rate becuase the numbers are calculated several different ways. What we do know is that no matter how you count it, the numbers as they pertain to Latinos are dismal. The point of the Forum was to provide a vehicle for people -- Latinos and non-Latinos -- to begin to understand how these issues of educational inequity affect us and the long-term economic health of this state. To whine about how Hispanics should "just learn English like everyone else" is simplistic and ignores the conditions under which inner-city kids are educated today. Lastly, while I cannot cite any specific studies as I write this response, I do know that there is enough research in the field that indicates Latino are assimilating at a rate consistent, if not faster, than that of previous non-Latino immigrants. So we are learning English -- and retaining our Spanish.

JP

Posted by: ac | April 3, 2008 1:41 PM

When the topic of longer school days came up, with many people supporting lengthening school days to increase instructional time and other support for students (especially given the 3 weeks teachers lose per year for the CMT's), he claimed to fully support this but said the only obstacle is... money!

NO,NO,NO, don't lengthen the school day unless it is going to provide kids with enrichment not more of the same. Our kids certainly need a longer day but for homework help, computer skills, cooking classes (reading), physical education activities, etc.

And for those of us who are thinking teachers don't want the longer day, it's not that. It's that kids can't handle a longer day of the same thing. We need to enrich their school lives not make them suffer through the school experience.

Posted by: FIX THE SCHOOLS | April 3, 2008 1:47 PM

AC:"...tests do not tell teachers what kids don't know. The everyday interactions, classwork, homework, assessments based on information studied and ongoing observations do that."

FTS - You're right. But state standardized testing tells parents and taxpayers what kids don't know. And in New Haven they don't seem to know very much. (And isn't assessment another word for test?)

AC: "We want our students to succeed and do better. Why would we want our students to do poorly on the tests? "

FTS - You don't want them to do poorly, it's just that you (unionized teachers collectively) don't care enough about student outcomes to support changes that will result in the students doing much better! You are part of a system that does not work for most students. The system right now is mostly about YOU and the bloated administrative bureucracy, and not the students. You (your union) fights tooth and nail to keep bad teachers from being fired, to keep the school day from being extended, from extending the school year, for keeping the ridculous concept of tenure alive (how in the world does tenure help public school students?), and to cut funding for urban public charter schools which deliver far better results than those of district schools.

AC - "Do you think we go to work each day to spend time playing around with children. No, we go to work each day to teach and make a difference in a child's life. "

FTS - Great. Make a difference in a child's life. While your at it, why don't you try to make a difference in LOTS of children's lives by standing up against your union's anti-student labor practices. Support accountability for all teachers. Cast out the worst among you instead of closing ranks and protecting crappy teachers with your union. You sound like a teacher who cares. And if you're any good, are you not frustrated that lousey teachers in your school aren't fired?

The AFT is not the UAW. This isn't about trying to divide profits between the capitalists and the proletariat. Every stance your union takes with restrictions on work rules and protection of bad teachers, has a very negative and direct impact on children.

AC - "Do you think we do this for the money? I dare say there are other professions out there for many of us who have completed 5 years of college and additional sixth year and doctorate work."

FTS - You may not do it for the money, but there are lots of folks in the private sector who would not believe it if you described your retirement plan. And who else gets such generous annual pay and all summer off?

AC - "We stay because of the children who need good teachers especially in urban areas such as New Haven"

FTS - Then prove you're a good teacher. Run for union office on a transformation platform, or vote for a union leader who won't push for educational policies that are detrimental to poor students, their families, and tax payers.

Posted by: FIX THE SCHOOLS | April 3, 2008 2:10 PM

AC, So only private school kids and parochial school kids can handle a longer school day? Why do these school models typically spend an hour and half longer each day on core subjects like reading writing and math?

You're a teacher, and you think kids "suffer" in your clasroom? Do you think learning to read and write is "suffering"?

As for money being the issue, I think most tax payers would trade their money for quality instruction time - as long as they could see dramatic improvement in results.

Posted by: AC | April 3, 2008 5:30 PM

OK, you are very good at twisting one's words, that's for certain. I am a teacher, not a union activist. I agree that there are teachers who should not be in classrooms, that is evident in every profession. I have worked very hard over the years to make a difference for "many children" not just "a child" which is evident in my planning, my classroom environment, my relationship with students and parents, and my commitment to my job.

Posted by: ac | April 3, 2008 6:08 PM

OOps pressed the wrong key, i wasn't done. Honestly, i really don't think anyone who has not had the opportunity to teach in New Haven or any other urban area can understand what we do in any given day. All I can say is that most of us our committed to our students and work hard to help "all children" succeed. To those who don't understand volunteer some time in a NH school or any school for that matter.

"You're a teacher, and you think kids "suffer" in your clasroom? Do you think learning to read and write is "suffering"?

Again, you're twisting my words to support your argument. Children today are not the children of 10/20/or30 years ago. Many have learning disabilities, ADHD, ADD, bipolar disorders, just to name a few. With the new inclusion laws we are teaching all of them in the regular education classroom. Oh, but excuse me, I don't think the parachial/private schools accept these students due to lack of professional resources. I have friends who work both private & parachial and know for a fact that this is true.

Getting back to original post which started this debate, "cut to the chase: Standardized testing "is not what learning is all about."
No, Illyssa, that is not what learning is about but it is what it has become. And to Francis, in my opinion it has take the joy out of learning and teaching for many, just ask a student! Please do what you can at your level to make a change in that. AC

Posted by: Al Santangelo | April 3, 2008 7:37 PM

MOSTLY TO JOHN TULIN: I enjoyed your comments on this issue. I also enjoyed others' reactions to your comments, because it showed how people with no valid argument automatically cry "bias" when faced with a truth they don't like.

I also get a chill when those same people start referring to the people who "built this country" ... because they do those people a disservice. My grandparents on both sides came to this country, one set from Italy, the other from Poland, and not only did they learn English, they made sure their children did because they realized that it would increase their chances of a better life.

I believe if we as a nation make it too easy to get by without speaking the language, we are doing more harm than good. Just my opinion.

Posted by: Wiseman45 | April 3, 2008 9:45 PM

There is nothing wrong withdoing poorly in a subject matter as long as the experience 'sticks in your craw' and sparks a life long passion for learning. Needless to say, no breaks for cultural differences. Hopefully, even ADHD students (or whoever) will at some point in their lives decide that their going to learn it no matter what it takes.

Posted by: BrokeinWestville | April 3, 2008 10:01 PM

AC,
I'm sorry, but are you really a teacher that cannot spell "parochial" properly???

Posted by: Ned | April 4, 2008 7:59 AM

Why not level the playing field and teach Esperanto as a second language? "Pig Latin" comes in very handy, when one wants to have a private conversation in the presence of bi-lingual non-native English speakers. If Ginger Rogers could sing "We're in the Money" - in Pig Latin, then I'm sure these kids can learn English...

Posted by: ac | April 4, 2008 8:46 AM

Typo...not spelling mistake. That's what i get for not going back and editing. I am a teacher, a proud one, and I can spell. At least I'm not rude!

Posted by: FIX THE SCHOOLS | April 4, 2008 8:54 AM

AC,

Give us a break. You seem to suggest that most of the public school students are special ed. Even if you have 20% special needs(very high), what about the other 80% of kids? You are making excuses.

I am sorry if you thought I was twisting your words, but I was just quoting you directly. Your writing reflects your thoughts.

In most other professions when you are lousey at your job, you get fired. In our public schools today, you can stick around and continue to be lousey. The worst that happens is that you are transferred to another school. Out of the 2,400 teachers in New Haven, how many were let go last year for poor performance (not including breaking the law)? Any? Google the notorious "rubber room" in New York public schools to learn what the union contracts are costing the taxpayers because bad teachers can't simply be fired.

Doesn't that irk you? Don't the bad teachers in your school make it harder for you and the other good teachers to serve the kids that you care so much about? Band together with other good teachers and go to your principal. Tell her that you want to have a great school, not just a few good classrooms. Speak out about it. Let her know that the poor culture in other classrooms is effecting the rest of the school and what you are trying hard to accomplish. It may not be what you signed up for, but if you remain silent then you're not any better than are the crappy teachers.

You don't need to be a union activist to help change your union's positions. But you can't escape responsibility for it's unjust stances when you support it with your union dues. The AFT's actions work against what you say you are for. Don't allow them to do that.

Posted by: ball-zee | April 4, 2008 9:20 AM

The latino community is an important and growing part of our communities. Their presence plays a role in the diversity that New Haven possess. However the country we live in speaks the English language and if our citizens or immigrants cannot speak this language together as Americans than they may become more disinfranchised then before. Language or conversations between different groups or races is what helps kill racial ignorance. So how can we as a peple come together as a community when proper American conversations cannot be held.
I understand and applaud people who come to this country to try and make a better life for themselves and their children, but a better life would be achieved if immigrants children and themselves could communicate and converse with anyone, anywhere. This would open doors for better work, eduacational opportunities and other opportunites that may exist but because of the language barriers they may never see or hear about. One country can have many languages spoken and keeping your heritage alive and strong is important to all races, however your chances of success in AMerica will greatly be elevated with a basic understanding and ability to speak ENGLISH!

Posted by: Teacher | April 5, 2008 7:27 AM

There seem to be a few misconceptions here around this issue. I want to clear them up not to claim helplessness with the issues at hand here, but so that when others can have a better understanding of the challenges of standardized testing in New Haven.

1. Language barriers in standardized testing: I teach at Cross, where we have a large number of ELL students. The vast majority of our students can speak and understand English. However, what is far more difficult (even for native-born English speakers) is reading English. The standardized tests for high school students include reading for information, two persuasive essays, a Science exam, and a Mathematics exam. The science and mathematics exams are all heavy reading tests, which make the exams even more difficult for students with reading difficulties. All subjects have to spend much of our class time studying problems of this nature, which is especially frustrating for all students who are struggling with reading English Please note: telling the Hispanic community to speak English doesn't really help this matter at all.

2. The number of special education students in regular education classrooms: New Haven does have a large number of special education students, and they have been integrated into regular education classes, as AC has mentioned. We have honors classes, which very rarely have special education students, but may have students who have control of ADHD or some behavior problem. Special education students are not a challenge in Honors classes. Then there are "college" courses, the middle-of-the-road courses. There are usually a few special education students in these classes, and most teachers have been trained in strategies to accommodate these students in the regular education classroom. Lastly there are remedial classes. Special education students often make up half of these classrooms. Many of the other students could probably be labeled special education if their parents requested testing. Students who have not succeeded in previous courses are often placed here; many of them did not succeed because of disciplinary issues such as classroom disruption. These classes are most challenging for all teachers.

Posted by: ac | April 5, 2008 3:37 PM

It's too bad this thread became one of teacher bashing. Unfortunately, teachers in NH have become desensitized to this because it has become a common excuse for the lack of success of today's student body. If we cared more, worked more hours, took kids home with us, fed them, and put them to bed at a decent hour maybe the problem would be fixed.

I will not comment again on this topic as it has become too negative. I will just state for the record that I do believe that our entire country has become test crazy, that ELL students are not getting the education they need to be literate and successful on these tests or for life, and it is not their fault. They are the true victimes.

Lastly, the general public will never understand until they themselves spend some time in a classroom. Think about it, how many doctors, dentists, lawyers,etc. deal with patients in groups of 25 or more? Now teachers on the other hand are expected to teach classrooms with a minimum of 26 students, some with special needs, ELL learners, and many students with behavioral problems, especially "anger management issues" these days. Teachers do their very best as we consider ourselves professionals even if most people don't, and have chosen this career of our own free will and not just because we get summers off and weeklong vacations. I for one, would like to see summer vacation shortened and vacations changed to give students additional time to learn but I know I am probably in a very small minority.

Many good points have been made throughout this dialogue but until you have walked in the shoes of a teacher, I wouldn't be casting stones and blaming them for the problems of todays educational system. I'm sorry it turned this way but again NH teachers are used to being blamed for most things that go wrong in the educational system.

I mentor many young teachers who say that this job is a job that they probably won't continue...reasons; too hard, no support, poor pay, and lack of student interest. I wonder what things will be like in the next 10 years when my generation moves on.

Signing off...AC