New Haven Independent

Posted by: donna | April 17, 2008 6:39 PM

there should not be juice bars downtown or any where else....teens don't belong in a nightclub attmisphire

Posted by: EarlyBird | April 17, 2008 6:56 PM

And they wonder why folks aren't lining up to pay more than $250K to live next door?

Posted by: TrueBlueCT | April 17, 2008 7:28 PM

Zoo Haven I call it.

And it's a tragedy waiting to happen.

In terms of what to do about it, I guess we'll just have to wait until a couple of innocent by-standers get killed.

Can someone tell me how the city profits by letting a few club owners run amok?

Posted by: Bill Saunders | April 18, 2008 2:04 AM

Remember, its not just teens (highschoolers), there are 19 & 20 year olds as well.

I came across a 'Big Break-Up' of one of these events in the fall, and couldn't believe the number of predominantly black youth heading west down chapel street in the aftermath. I was riding my bike (back from pizza at Pepe's on a Sunday nite), and actually had to get off and walk because the crowd was so dense.

When I asked some random girls what the trouble was, I got this classic exchange, worthy of a comedy skit:

Me: (innocently) So, what's going on with all the cops?

Girl One: (in high pitched shrill) Whatchyou walking your bike for 'stead of riding it?

Me: (calmly) Well, it was too crowded on the street to safely ride.

Girl Two: (in a higher shrill,getting in my face) WHATCHYOU LOOK LIKE THAT FOR??

I did not have an answer to that perplexing question (but at least she didn't liken me to Jerry Garcia, as many do), so I moved on.

To give the NHPD a little credit, I asked the first two officers I came across what the hub-bub was -- the rookie cop gave me some elusive BS answer that you usually get from rookies, who have little sense of community. Fortunately his partner recognized me (from previous exploits -- and believe me, I am regularly oblivious to being a pseudo public figure), and told me they were breaking up an underage party at Gotham.

Don't get mad at me, religious people, but this exodus was on a biblical scale, the only difference being there was no promised land in sight.

Posted by: Ned | April 18, 2008 7:34 AM

Nice overhead shot of the $300,000 bus shelter. Did the architect specify bullet proof glass?

Posted by: cedarhillresident | April 18, 2008 8:38 AM

Ok my kids use to go to these events at gothum and other clubs downtown. Back then (2 years ago) they were not all the time . Just during breaks and in the summer. I thought they kept it under control pretty good. My kids said that people are removed from the club if the do not behave.

Most of the kids go there because schools do not do "mixers" (at least that is what we called them back in the day) where youth can learn to interact with the opposite sex on a social level. Events like this are very important for teens and young adults. I realize that there are a few that ruin it. But most that go are in general your average teen.

Posted by: Hartford Johnson | April 18, 2008 9:11 AM

There must be some way under the law to shut these clubs down.

Posted by: jp | April 18, 2008 9:48 AM

Everyone should look up there alder and send them an email about this issue. heres a link to find who your alder is and there email address http://www.cityofnewhaven.com/Aldermen/

Posted by: Greg | April 18, 2008 10:42 AM

I'm also aware that a New Haven police officer was assaulted while attempting to keep order. As a taxpayer, and as a citizen concerned for police safety and the safety of other residents, I believe it's absolutely shameful for Gotham Citi Cafe to continue these events.

It has been an ongoing problem and continues to escalate. These nights at Gotham make it impossible for other area restaurants and bars to succeed. The underlying truth is that these events at Gotham destroy the very successes of downtown renewal which administration members and investors have worked so hard to build.

These 'juice parties' are propelling this city backwards at a staggaring pace. We're not going to stand-by and watch one of our officers become a statistic to an event that clearly has no positive attributes except to line the pockets of Gotham's irresponsible owner.

Mr. Mayor, it's time to act.

Posted by: mary | April 18, 2008 11:39 AM

You are so right cedar hill we used have a lot of events in schools in our communities called mixers,dances,movie night,shows to help kids learn to socialize just as we did as adults.The only difference is we had more places to do it.When they got rid of all the places we used to hang out the only place left for these kids is the schools or these clubs.

Posted by: walt bradley | April 18, 2008 1:13 PM

I grew up in and around new haven, and i can attest that 25 i was an underge drinker in what was then The Grotto, or The Twilight zone, and later Malone's and Bluebartz, and before me there was Ron's place. Teenagers have been coming downtown for decades, being in places they probably shouldn't be, doing things out of view from their parents, smoking drinking and trying to get laid. The times i spent downtown in my teenage years laid the groundwork for my love and sense of history here, and i'd do it all exactly the same again.
The differnence between my generation and the present set of new haven kids is that guns weren't an option, never. Even guys who grew up in households with a drunk or abusive parent, never thought of shooting someone as even remote option.
Granted the Meathead stretch from Demry's to Toads had fights when the bars got out so often, we'd hang around waiting for the inevitable members' only gladiatorial to end our evenings on a high note, but again, the only weapon was a stray comb or sharp corner of the vaurnets some 'staven guy was sporting.
I have no idea why these kids feel it's o.k. to carry a piece as if it were a swiss army knife, but the fact that they are tells me things in this city have to start from the bottom up.
I believe this is like the third sign of the apocolypse.

Posted by: Chris Gray | April 19, 2008 12:18 AM

I am really liking what Cedarhillresident, Mary and Walt Bradley are saying here.

As Walt knows, I know whereof and whenof he speaks. (John Lynch used to sell flowers for Wally in front of Demery's and called the confrontations on the "meathead stretch" the Friday Night Fights.)

Still, Walt may have missed the cycles in the '70s and '90s around here when guns did flood the city and I even saw or heard of such weapons in the hands of people I knew. (Like Barack, I ask you not to judge me by those with whom I was acquainted.) A shooting incident, about which I wrote on March 5, happened on Elm Street when the old firehouse at Park Street was open as the High Point, an all ages joint, though the actual bullets were fired down by (and, in one case, into the front window of) Rudy's.

Still, the point is that those shouting against the kids having some sort of social life are being unrealistic. The real problems are the gang culture and, even more crucially, the availability of the weapons.

If I got the story straight, the cannon out at Ft. Hale Park used to be on the Green until one St. Patrick's Day drunken revelers, angry at some slight by Yalie's during the parade, decided to try to use it against the Yale Wall. (You may also have noticed that the parade is now always held during Spring Break.)

Posted by: cedarhillresident | April 19, 2008 10:15 AM

Greg
these teen events are about 8 a year, so how do 8 nights out of the year greatly effect the surrounding businesses? Or is it a group of diverse kids in downtown on a weekend night is an intimidating.

This is a small group of children ruining it for a large group of children that need events like this. But I must say "walt bradley" said it well...Downtown (to those of us that have lived here all our lives) is a coming of age place. Even if you stop the clubs from having the events...they will still come...but they will be hanging on the streets.
Walt did also bring up the fact the weapons were never a part of the earlier generation. So that point I do understand. But this is something all community's...not just the precious downtown area are dealing with right now. And not just New Haven but nation wide.

Maybe if we listen to the YOUTH RIGHTS MEDIA when they say teens need a place (a neutral) place this event supports that fact.

Posted by: Bitsie Clark | April 19, 2008 11:00 AM

I am the Alderperson for the Downtown Ward and I am also the Chair of the Youth Services Committee. The events of the evening of April 16 are indeed serious and need good public discussion that leads to action in a number of areas. Interestingly they are illustrative of the two major issues that I am dealing with every day in both my Ward and Committee jobs on the Board of Aldermen.
More and more people are choosing to live downtown because of its convenience and the lively and exciting atmosphere of the restaurants, theaters, museums and clubs. But the challenge of downtown is striking a balance between the commercial and the residential interests and needs. To that end we hold periodic meetings between residents and club owners, work closely with Police, Traffic and Parking, Town Green Special Services, and the Downtown/Wooster Square Management Team to address problems quickly and provide opportunities for communication and discussion.
The issues with Youth, however, are far more intractable and complicated. New Haven does have parks, good after school and summer program in the schools, and some fine community centers - all of whom serve thousands of children. But often teens are looking for a different experience. I am in agreement with the comments of CEDARHILLRESIDENT, Mary and Walt Bradley. Young people need places to go to "hang out" to talk and flirt and practice and test their social skills. These places need to be not highly programmed, allow for easy movement between groups and among individuals and they need to be safe. We discovered, during the curfew hearings just for young people held at Hillhouse and Cross in the fall of 2006, that having an informal and safe place to go is the major need of the teenagers in New Haven. Numbers of students said to the Board of Aldermen "You took away the Mall!!" There are no easily accessible, central places where kids are welcome - no Bowling Alleys, no Roller Skating Rinks, not even a McDonalds. Business people and merchants are reluctant to be overly encouraging of teenage patrons because of the unpredictable nature of teenage behavior. The issue of the availability of guns, pointed out by Walt Bradley, is of paramount concern. How do we provides these kinds of facilities for young people and how do we make them safe?
Since February the Youth Committee of the Board of Aldermen has been looking at all sides of this issue. We are seeking solutions. We meet on the 4th Wednesday of every month at 5:30 PM in City Hall and anyone is invited to attend. The next meeting is Wednesday April 22. Students from various high schools, social service professionals and citizens have been taking part in our deliberations. Che Dawson, the City's Director of Youth Services also participates. We welcome your thoughtful ideas on this very complicated issue and hope you will attend our next meeting.

Posted by: jp | April 19, 2008 12:12 PM

cedarhillresident,
These events are very dangerous I would invite you and anyone else who thinks this is trivial to come down and see what its really like when these events let out. It all out brawls of 50 kids or more on every corner. Police line the streets and walk around spraying mace to get them to disperse but they just run to the next corner and continue the fight. I agree with Greg that when someone gets killed and if this doesn't stop someone will get killed. It makes people think that new haven hasn't changed from 10 years ago. I can tell you that when Indiana Jones was being filmed my grand parent were to scared to come downtown because of the subway angle guys in east rock. Also I completely disagree that they will still come downtown if we close the clubs. The mall was a murder waiting to happen until they closed it and its completely safe now. Also the idea of a neutral site makes no sense at all. Who in there right mind would invite all the gangs in new haven to the same place at the same to have some juice and dance the night away. Wednesdays shooting is the tip of the iceberg and if it doesn't stop its going to get much worse. In addition I find your insinuation that it's a race issue to be ludicrous. I think we can all agree that any event that makes it to dangerous to go outside is a bad one and should be stopped. I don't care if the people at that event are white, black, space aliens. If there's a 90% chance of a fight and a 10% chance of getting shot it should end, but hey feel free to invite them over to your house for milk and cookies.

Posted by: greg | April 19, 2008 1:03 PM

CHresident,

Frankly, you are more naive than I originally thought. Yes, these 'teen events' of mostly 20 year old thugs who bring guns into downtown are held about 8 times a year. Which, inherently means about once a month. So, every month downtown residents get treated to an onslaught of deviant behavior where bullets fly and cops are assaulted. This is how Gotham is raising the New Haven youth. Don't worry, these "teens" will return to Gotham when they reach the age of 21 and keep the spirit of their youth alive.

You say, 'how do 8 nights a year effect downtown?' Because people talk. I walked down Chapel today, nearly a week after the sweet little teeny bopper punch party, and heard two guys say "that's where that dude was shot". Suburbanites coming into downtown love to hear that! "Wow, you hear that dear? Some little lucky bastard was shot right here on this downtown corner where we're standing! How exciting! Maybe we should come down at night and eat at Bentara, then get hit by a stray bullet!"

8 nights of assaulted cops and bullets is 8 nights too many. While there should be something to entertain our youth, pretending to be livin it up in the clublife atmosphere will result in trouble, now and in the future.

I don't live downtown. I live in the Dwight Neighborhood. I fight for basic human rights in my area, but downtown in the epicenter of a successful New Haven. If it goes to hell, the surrounding neighborhoods will be the first to burn. That's why these events downtown can't happen.

And don't pull that race card BS with me. I would have the same exact feelings on this issue if it were a group of green eskimos pulling these stunts.

I know you want to strenthen the community and make this city a great place, but you've got to understand the implications of this crazyness when it unfolds. The next one will be recorded and youtubed for every potential downtown investor to see. Hear that?

Cheers,
-Greg

Posted by: cedarhillresident | April 20, 2008 11:57 AM

First Bitsie,
Thank you for all the work you and your group are doing with the young people of New Haven! That is one of the main reasons I luv ya so much! It really is a very important issue in the city on so many levels! And thank you for posting and up dating us on what is happening....please keep us updated!

JP
Downtown has always been a magnet...as walt stated we older residents came downtown and did our share of trouble making...the colusim for instants.
When I moved back to New Haven from A more suburban area in the Region I had to ask myself first...If I move back I will have to deal with more crime, noisy nights and all the chaos a city has, But I love New Haven and I did not love the LAWN FREAKS of the suburbs (never could convert to being one of the JONES'S) but my point is I moved here knowing the downfalls of living in the city. As I am sure most that move here must know that the city is NOT the suburbs.
So we get rid of all the clubs downtown??? Does that make any sense on the revenue side of it (at least in this point of time)??? It is call city life. And yes I realize guns and teens is not what any one wants to deal with all major citys in the state are in the same boat right now. It is not just a New Haven issue. (although I would love to be the first city that fixes the problem!!)
greg luv ya :)
No I am not naive, trust me it is the dumb blonde act (out of the bottle blonde). Always seems to work. I as you know live in Cedar Hill not exactly the safest area... but a great community of people in general. And if you know me, the crime in this city is a major issue on my "need to fix card" right behind my Property Tax. And as you stated "downtown in the epicenter of a successful New Haven" which I totally agree with. But that also brings up the question of, if we get rid of clubs what will bring the people downtown on a Friday and Saturday? It is a very small group that will come to the shubert and the Rep ect. The younger crowd is our impulse spending group. We have no big company's based downtown...and the suburbanites that work there are not really shopping here. This is a major development issue. We have that new Dept. sponsored by YALE who are addressing this problem as we speak, they will hopefully figure out a way to market the downtown area and then maybe landlords will have a better group of businesses to offer there space to. But for now this is what we have.

Now back to Bitsie's comment to sum it all up.

I realize the residents of downtown are in a position of having to deal with the uncontrollable youth that every other area in the city deals with all year round.(but I will say your groups of kids are definitely a larger group). So if it is a problem take the time to go to the meeting that Bitsie spoke of. The clubs are all the inner city kids have to congregate on a social level. If you want it to end there must be an alternative. Become part of the cure. Get involved!

Posted by: cedarhillresident | April 20, 2008 12:17 PM

PS
My neighbor just read my comment and wanted me to post....
It also depends on were you are from when looking at New Haven. She is from the Bronx... New Haven is the country to her. When her family comes to visit they too call New Haven the country.(I always laugh at that) So the views of the city varys depending on who you are and where you are from.
So me being use to the city see it as part of life (part that does need to be fixed). Where her and I will walk up to a dealer and tell them to leave...many would hide in there houses. So I guess I do owe an apology for not realizing others see things through different eyes than me.
:)

Posted by: JP | April 20, 2008 1:50 PM

cedarhillresident,
I think you might not understand what we are talking about here. No one is talking about closing the clubs. We are talking about putting an end to nights usually Sundays or nights when kids have a day off from school where Gothem invites kids from 14 - 20 to come and pretend to be adults. Its an inappropriate venue and almost always leads to trouble. Here is a link to the company that runs most of the events http://www.highschooldanceparty.com/Gotham-Citi-New-Haven-CT.html

I also agree that the kids need a place to go but i dont think getting so many together in a central place is a good idea. We should be looking at a hub and spoke for the answer here. Let some go to the skateing rink in east rock. Let some go to the post mall. Let some go to the movies in north haven, or orange, or milford. Let some go to comunity centers to play sports or hang out. Let them go to hamden and milford for bowling. All of these activitys are already avalible to them. Just dont get them all together downtown its begging for someone to get killed.

Posted by: yale10 | April 20, 2008 8:23 PM

Here's an easy way to get the underage parties to stop - charge Gotham for the extra security required to keep these nights from turning into all-out brawls. It makes no sense for a private club to put such a huge strain on city services without bearing some of the cost itself. Align the incentives and externalities correctly, and the problem disappears.

Posted by: on whalley | April 21, 2008 9:18 AM

I love it.

"Stop the parties because stupid kids are shooting each other!!"

"We need more places for kids to go after school to stop them from shooting each other!!"

You just have to laugh.

So which is it? Offer them nothing and let them run amok or offer them something and let them run amok?

Just let them kill each other within the walls of the building to prevent any collateral damage. Maybe lock the doors while they're in there.

15 years ago I went to a couple of these things and had to stop. They were ridiculous. Either way too lame with police state oversight or way too wild. There was no moderation with kids 15 years ago and apparently there is even less today. You either lock them in shackles or let them destroy themselves. I prefer the latter. It offers more liberty for everyone. Those who will destroy themselves will and those who will not will go on to be productive.

Posted by: Chris Gray | April 21, 2008 9:01 PM

Boy, I've got start copying the story I reply to so I'll be sure of what I meant.

I think this was in response to the Mayor and the Chief saying that they couldn't get witnesses to talk because those witnesses were responsible for other shootings, which if they were so certain, begs the question of why these witnesses are free to be witnesses.

"Or, I suppose we are left to assume that this is occurring within a small community of armed assassins and we should just let them shoot it out and be done with it."

Judging from JP's reports, this isn't such a small community. In fact, it is vaguely reminiscent of the terrible early to middle '60s. We'd better hope Obama, Clinton or McCain have the skills of a Kennedy to lead us through such turbulence and a citizenry ready to take up the challenge they place before us.

This city administration can hardly be counted on to meet it.

Posted by: jay | May 15, 2008 2:11 AM

Hey on whalley ...y don't you meet me on whalley in front of the pizza place