New Haven Independent

Posted by: elmcityguy | June 3, 2008 12:52 PM

Why do these people feel the need to look for loopholes in order to force their religion on others?

Posted by: robn | June 3, 2008 12:55 PM

Hah!

NFW

see if you guess where I'm quoting from...."...congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.."

Posted by: True New Havener | June 3, 2008 1:01 PM

Is this what we have come to?

24 people joined this woman? Did those 24 people also sign up to help tutor kids?

I'm all for religion. I'm even all for religious people being socially and politically active as far as the law allows -- even when I don't agree with them.

But we have had 8 years of someone spouting meaningless religiosity in the White House while we have gone to war in Iraq, and while billions of dollars have left the exact programs that we need to help inner-city children in order to pay for that war. Being able to recite a prayer does not make anyone a good person -- even when it is a pretend prayer that does not even use God's name.

One thing that these folks should have learned in school is that as a result of the Establishment Clause enshrined in our Constitution, we have a separation of church and state. If we don't know or care about the teaching of basic civics, should we really be in a position to say what other people's children should learn in school.

Is there a country out there which does not protect religious minorities that any of us would like to live in?

Just sayin'

Posted by: new havener | June 3, 2008 2:01 PM

here we go again take prayer out of school.....now put it in because of society in new haven...how about doing the pledge of allegance to our flag and a prayer for all americans to be safe and come home from the war..amen

Posted by: jade | June 3, 2008 2:10 PM

in response to her quote: "This is about basic moral values," Kirkland said, "and I think that our country still deserves the right to instill moral values in our children."

since when does morality = religion?

Posted by: alberta | June 3, 2008 2:14 PM

what about poeple who dont believed in god, I dont want for my kids to pray something even if the work of god is not there. Also, many of the people who had died around new haven are Church goers, so, what happen to their god. look that pray is not working. If somebody wants to find an answer for the violence is schools and our neigborhoods, they should fight against poverty and injustice in one of the more powerfull countries in the world that expend billios of dollars killing people in Iraq. What about some prayers for that people killed by gods followers from these country.

Posted by: THREEFIFTHS | June 3, 2008 2:50 PM

Matthew6:5-6
And when you pray you must not be like the hypocrites.For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners,So that they can bee seen by others.When thou prayest,Enter into thy closet and when thou hast shut thy door,Pray to the Father which is in secret. Timothy2:23 Have nothing to do with Foolish,Ignorant controversies,You know that they breed quarrels!!!

Posted by: mr october | June 3, 2008 4:23 PM

i have no problem with mandatory prayer. In fact i support it - so long as the children are also forced to wear a #44 yankee jersey and rubber boots. I know what your are thinking "Mr. October, I don't know about the other stuff but forced prayer is just plain silly". Well, is it silly to start wars or murder people because of religion? is it silly to not marry and spend your remaining days with someone you love because of religion? is it silly to demean women, and make them second class citizens because of religion? No, i didn't think so.
Now on your knees children, and pull out your intelligent design text books.

Posted by: Tracy | June 3, 2008 5:44 PM

I am truly terrified for this country. A Godless country will see more crimes committed than one could ever imagine. Don't worry about Kirkland's children because they are covered with the blood of Jesus Christ. No weapon formed against them will be able to prosper. I thank God for people like Kirkland because she stands for something positive. I'd bet most of you making these negative comments have not made one bit of a difference in your community and forget about the schools. May God have mercy on your souls. I guess its better to just sit back and watch the children in New Haven kill themselves. Of course the war is an important topic but why is it that when a person takes the initiative to make a difference, judgemental people have this expectation that it's that person's responsibility to address every important issue there is. That's ubsurd. Go Kirkland GO!!! And don't let anyone stop you. God is with you now and forever Amen!

Posted by: Nestor Makhno | June 3, 2008 7:56 PM

I share Kirkland's concern, but as a black teenager famously said during the 1965 Watts' riots, "All that Christian blah has been used too long against the negroes."

Posted by: Tammy | June 3, 2008 8:15 PM

Oh, come on America please wake up! How can prayer hurt? I don't believe that Mrs. Kirkland thinks that prayer will rid us of all crime in our schools, but if there is a Higher Power that will give us help and will perhaps influence our children to think differently, Why not give it a try? The kids that have been shooting up our schools as of late all over this country are sure being influenced by something or someone. Um, if I have at least some of my facts right the ones that have committed these crimes in our schools was somehow involved in things that have great evil influence; they say that "something/someone told them to do it." I'll say it like this, you know how your children will sit down and watch a cartoon and in that cartoon you will have the good guy vs. the bad guy? Well it's not just in the cartoons. It's for real. The Bible that we don't believe in speaks of there being both good and evil forces. There is enough in our world today invoking the evil forces how about more that would invoke or summons the good. And as for poverty and injustice, why not include that in the prayer? Ask the Higher Power (who by the way I do believe is God) to help us find solutions to these evils because we are sure not coming up with solutions on our own. Whenever you have to put metal detectors in schools and parents have to fear when their child leaves for school in the morning, WE HAVE FAILED!!!! Perhaps someone else bigger and greater than us can offer some answers. I know, I know, a country that was founded on the Bible hates the Bible, but it does say that if we would pray, that He (God) would heal the land. I think we need healing in more ways than one! Healing in this instance is referring to answers. We need answers for our neighborhoods, for the poor, for single parent homes especially where fathers are missing. We need answers for a government that has failed us, getting rid of the very programs that our children need! Healing, Healing, Healing. Let our children include these things in their prayer. It sounds all positive to me, why not let our children; the next generation; the generation that will lead on when we are gone; ask this God to heal and make things better. He said He would, let's try it and see what happens. Again we have tried everything else and it has failed. We have just about exhausted our resources, why not give this a try? Giving our children an option to pray, not forcing anyone to pray a certain way, not teaching them anything about a particular religion is all that Kirkland is trying to do. If you don't want your child to pray, sign a waiver. But to Kirkland, my PRAYERS are with you because you are thinking positively about our children. I think its a wonderful idea, you go Kirkland!

Posted by: Steve Ross | June 3, 2008 8:29 PM

"Don't worry about Kirkland's children because they are covered with the blood of Jesus Christ."

Awesome. They should start a black metal band.

Posted by: -fairhavener- | June 3, 2008 8:38 PM

"A Godless country will see more crimes committed than one could ever imagine."

That's funny because atheists make up 0.209% of the prison population of the United States vs 80.001% Christian (the remaining percentage is other religions). These numbers are from 1997, but I doubt they have changed significantly since then.

"I guess its better to just sit back and watch the children in New Haven kill themselves."

There is nothing more useless than prayer. Proven time and time again.

"I'd bet most of you making these negative comments have not made one bit of a difference in your community and forget about the schools."

I can't speak for the others, but I have done more for my community than all the prayers since the founding of New Haven. You'll probably find that the people most opposed to prayer in school are the ones devoting the most time to actually helping people - as opposed to making all children memorize your lame prayer, or attend your church and donate your hard earned money to it.

Posted by: -fairhavener- | June 3, 2008 8:41 PM

Oh, I forgot, this effort won't make it further than this news article. Supreme Court, yeah right.

Posted by: Alderman Greg Morehead | June 3, 2008 10:00 PM

I don't feel that "these" people are forcing anything on anyone. Other people have beliefs about certain things and are VERY open with them and no one questions them, but when others stand up for what they believe, it come back as "these" people?? That's the reason why the schools and city/National Government is failing right now because we are trying to take God out of everything. This country was built on GOD and slowly as we began to take GOD out of schools, look what has happened. Did the shootings and violence happen in schools when our grandfathers and grandmothers were there? Did these things happen 30-40 years ago in schools? NO. Because children prayed every day before their day began and GOD was apart. Once GOD and prayer was taken out, look what happened. Even with our currency now, government is trying to remove, IN GOD we trust. Look what is going on now with our economy. A lot of people think these are coincidences. This is no coincidence, these are the signs of the times. This should be instituted not just in New Haven, but all over the world. I would support legislature like this! Ms. Kirkland, please call me at your earliest convenience. My number is below.
If you have a post and want to comment or down someone,(above) don't hide behind a fictitious name, stand up for what you believe! It kills me to read posts and people do that. What are you afraid of?

Regards,

Alderman Greg Morehead
203.507.7766

Posted by: James | June 3, 2008 10:27 PM

Alderman Morehead, I'd like you to meet my friend Causality. Apparently you haven't met.

Posted by: che15 | June 4, 2008 1:11 AM

for the first time in the history of the new haven independen an alderman has said something worth a damn. mr. moorehead you may have actually took a stand for something, bravo. be careful though you dont want peolpe clinging to their guns and religion.
hey fairhavener athiests make up .2% of the prison population they probably make up only .2% of the country's population. the smallest minority dictated the end of the pledge of allegiance and moment of silence.
by the way all of you who complain about the war in iraq have any of you ever served or have had anyone close to you serve. i bet if branjolina told you we should be in darfur you would gladly send troops there.

Posted by: Ned | June 4, 2008 7:44 AM

Why aren't they praying to Zeus? Why are superstitious people always trying to force their stupid beliefs on everyone? Sunday is the dumbest day in America. Allah, Jesus, the Easter Bunny what's the difference???

Posted by: Deuce | June 4, 2008 8:09 AM

"I guess its better to just sit back and watch the children in New Haven kill themselves."

If these children are gun-toting, crack selling "gangstas", then I'm all for it.

Posted by: robn | June 4, 2008 8:49 AM

Uhhhh...hey Alderman Morehead,

Pull out your history books dude...if you own any...this country wasn't "built on god", but was built upon enlightenment values based upon reason.

But hell, I've got an open mind...as other NHI commenters have elaborately commentated, "how can it hurt?" So I'm all for it, as long as you include all beliefs in the prayer session (see link below).

http://www.venganza.org/

Posted by: king james V | June 4, 2008 9:20 AM

alderman morehead, my real (Christian?) name is dave poran, and you sir ought to go back to playing the tonight show where at least you can do no harm to our city. If you can't leave jesus at home, you shouldn't be in government.

Posted by: Corey | June 4, 2008 9:28 AM

Prayer is a way of life. Regardless of our religion, everyone BELIEVES in something or someone- even atheists. And what we believe dictates our actions. This is not about religion. Parents need to be more involved in the lives of their children. These kids are raising themselves out there! They know no better because they are being taught no better. We are creatures of habit. We will do things that have been instilled in us everyday. Why not talk to your kids, get involved and show them that someone cares what happens to them. Show them in your own lives how to deal with problems without using violence and being disrespectful. Esteem them high. Those are the weapons they should be armed with when they go out in the world. Instead us as parents have stolen those weapons, by talking down to our kids, ignoring their ideas and their thoughts, disrespecting them, and not showing them responsibility or accountability. Our children fear no one. How do you get a gun out of a child's hand when they feel they have nothing to lose? You think they don't know the consequences for their actions? They know. But our children also need to know and be assured that there is something better out their for them. They should know that they have could something to live for and look forward to. And who better to show them then us parents. Parents: Where are you? Even if you feel you are not where you want to be in YOUR life, shouldn't we motivate our children to strive for more? It's not too late.

We can argue about this all we want to. Prayer means different things to different people. The bottom line is- the world needs guidance and prayer is just a vehicle in which some feel they can get that guidance. So if you are one that is against prayer that is your right, but why are you taking that right away from those that believe in it? Prayer should not be forced but it shouldn't be banned either.

Posted by: elmcityguy | June 4, 2008 9:42 AM

How about, like my wife and I do, you all take CARE of your childern and teach them to have some respect, give them activities to do and spend time with them rather than expect some magical sky pixie from a fairy tale do it for you. Want your kids to learn prayer, pay to send them to catholic school. I'm sure if you can't afford it, the school with give them a scholorship, such outstanding christians must be worthy of it no?

Alderman Morehead, you should be ashamed, you sit on a board that rubberstamps everything the mayor wants, raise our taxes to the point where people can't afford to live, and you have the nerve to say the problem is not having your little bedtime stories taught in school? No wonder our city is broke with people like you making these types of choices. Thats a lawsuit waiting to happen. Grow a pair, stick up for the citizens of the city. The only prayer you'll get from most of them is praying to have the money to get their tax bill paid before the towing gestapo come out or the city forecloses on them. Read your history as well, 30-40 years ago, there were riots in the streets and bombings in New Haven. Was that because of prayer?

Take care of your children, don't let them run wild in the streets, enforce rules on them and encourage them, thats what helps raise children, not forcing your religion on them.

Posted by: jt | June 4, 2008 9:46 AM

okay, Alderman Greg Morehead, I would like to enlighten you to something, especially as an elected official. There is a small thing called, separation of church and state !!!!!

How about showing some respect for people who may have beliefs that are different than yours??

Posted by: Tamisha | June 4, 2008 10:49 AM

Hello 'message board'.
My name is Tamisha Antrum and I am the author of the prayer Miss Kirkland read at this rally. I was asked to write this prayer in support of not forcing children to pray to any particular 'god', but rather reinstituting the foundation on which this country was ultimately built. Remember the reason for the Revolutionary War? Freedom to represent ourselves and freedom of religion. I accepted the request because children should be allowed to pray in school if they want to. And have something said everyday to encourage them to encourage us. And I wrote this in a generic and simplistic way because I believe it's not just about protecting and praying for the safety of any one group of people but rather all.

I work at Walter Reed Hospital in Washington, DC and I see first-hand everyday what this country is suffering and what these young people are sacrificing. The prayer is about encouragement and accountability for how we treat each other and the acknowledgement that our children, America feels very hopeless and helpless right now and we have to believe that its going to get better.

Posted by: elmcityguy | June 4, 2008 11:36 AM

If your children need prayer, pray with them and/or send them to catholic school. My child will not be taking part in your idol worshiping rituals just because you say it is the right thing.

Bottom line is YOUR world needs prayer, not mine. I don't need some imaginary friend to help me decide what is right and wrong. You are welcome to that, I don't fault you for it, but don't force it on me or my family.

Posted by: Steve Ross | June 4, 2008 11:49 AM

Alderman,

Even beyond your utter leap in logic to make your very weak point, beyond your ignorance of the actual foundations of our country, I'm dismayed that you'd so vehemently assert that worshiping a God (any of them) is necessary to a civil society.

While I'd expend every effort to fight a notion like Ms. Kirkland's, at least her motives are in many ways understandable and altruistic; yours, Alderman, are revolting.

I look forward to the day when our elected officials can use reason and wisdom to facilitate change rather than cloaking their prejudices and personal opinions with mysticism and grandeur.

Posted by: Alderman Greg Morehead | June 4, 2008 11:56 AM

King James, JT and others
Why can't i be in City Government and believe what i do? Others believe in many things and are very open with their beliefs, why can't i be open with mine? Everyone has their own opinions and I will never try to push anything on anyone, but I am talking about how I was raised and what has worked over the years. Is that wrong for saying my opinion? I just don't think it's right for everyone on here making comments and downing Ms Kirkland for what she believes. Everyone that sits on the board has their beliefs and some choose to be open with them. I am one of the "some" that i'm referring to. I will never back down or keep quiet about what I believe. Others don't, why should I. That's just me. Before I was an Alderman i believed the same, why should it change with me being an elected official?

Regards,

Alderman Greg Morehead
Ward 22
203.507.7766

Posted by: dylan | June 4, 2008 11:57 AM

As a Catholic, I would never want children reciting the Rosary in New Haven public schools. But God, Christ, or Mary are never mentioned in the prayer. So here's my question, does it still make sense if you insert Allah, Zeus, Caesar, Family, Humanity, or Science? I actually think it does.

It seems like the question here is whether we should encourage our children to believe in SOMETHING greater than themselves. A generation of telling our kids that they're special and should feel good almost no matter what they do seems like its led to a world of adults (in Woodbridge as much as in New Haven) with often shallow motivations.

Children shouldn't be told to believe in God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but I don't think it's too much to ask for them to think outside of themselves.

Posted by: che15 | June 4, 2008 12:14 PM

sorry new haven i forgot i was in the socialist capital of the northeast. i forgot about the may day parade organized by wealthy yalies who are pissed off mommy and daddy make so much money, and civic leaders who read the communist manifesto forgetting that they should read animal farm to learn about the effects of socialism. i am by no means a jesus freak but nothing else has worked in any city or town and last time i checked crime was much lower when there was a little god in school.

Posted by: dylan | June 4, 2008 12:39 PM

In addition, Karl Marx said that religion is the opiate of the masses, and there's plenty of evidence he may be right. But I contend that the cult of inward self-worship is the opiate of the individual and often just as insidious.

Posted by: elmcityguy | June 4, 2008 12:55 PM

You all can believe in whatever you want. Honestly, I don't even have a problem if the students themselves decided on a prayer, but making it manditory is where I draw the line. Your god does not equal everyone else's god. Just because a prayer is good for you, doesn't mean it is good for everyone.

Can one of you answer, why force others to pray if they don't want to? What is gained by it? Why do you care what others do with their spiritual life? Who are you to tell others what the proper way to worship is?

Posted by: Dennis M. | June 4, 2008 1:14 PM

Listen ELMCITYGUY, U grow a pair & post your name COWARD! James, apparently U haven't met a dictionary. Learn how to spell. Ned & deuce are just plain ignorant. All the others like king james v, JT, steve ross etc., the second someone stands up for beliefs that ACTUALLY mean something, people wanna downplay it. But when someone, in office, stands up for their beliefs like coming out the freakin closet or being a drug head or anything like that U claim the right to free speech!!

For U that say this country wasn't built on godly principles & he needs to read his history books, read the newspapers of all that has happened since taking prayer out of schools. But it's whatever. Just like death & taxes, stupidity will be around forever. Go for it!

310 579 2903

Posted by: elmcityguy | June 4, 2008 1:33 PM

Why not send your kids to parochial school if you want them to pray?

Posted by: Edward_H | June 4, 2008 2:17 PM

Morehead

This should be instituted not just in New Haven, but all over the world. I would support legislature like this!

Everyone has their own opinions and I will never try to push anything on anyone,

You won't push anything on anyone yet you will support legislation to establish prayer in schools?

Because children prayed every day before their day began and GOD was apart.

What is stopping children from praying before they leave the house ?

Once GOD and prayer was taken out, look what happened.

If you are going to blame the removal of "GOD and prayer" for today's problems you might as well blame desegregation as well. After all there were no "shootings and violence happen(ing) in schools when our grandfathers and grandmothers" were attending segregated school now were there?

So the social welfare system that destroyed so many urban families by making responsible family planning unnecessary and the father obsolete has nothing to do with anything? All these kids problems are do to lack of school prayer?

If you seriously think forcing kids to recite some prayer before they begin their day will prevent young savages from committing home invasions and selling crack I feel sorry for your ward.

NHI
What type of standards , if any, do you use when censoring posts. The post by Dennis M brings nothing positive to this discussion and is in fact offensive and purposefully insulting. Funny you let this one through but when I ask for clarification on an articles discrepancies it is deleted

Posted by: king james v | June 4, 2008 2:21 PM

this country started out with slavery also, shall we revisit that? what would happen if the jewish editor decided only jewish prayer should be allowed in mandatory school prayer meetins.?

Posted by: Dennis M. | June 4, 2008 2:41 PM

And your racists views do Edward_H?? Right!
Desegregation, welfare, young savages committing home invasions & selling crack? Wow...

Posted by: James | June 4, 2008 2:49 PM

Alderman Morehead, I quote;

I will never try to push anything on anyone

Yet earlier you stated;

That's the reason why the schools and city/National Government is failing right now because we are trying to take God out of everything... This is no coincidence, these are the signs of the times. This should be instituted not just in New Haven, but all over the world.

OK, as an elected official your duty is to do your part to prevent the city from failing. Yes, that's a gross oversimplification, but I think we can agree to that on a basic level. You then say that the removal of god from "everything" is why the city/nation is failing. So your goal would/must be to put god back into everything. You then continue to state that you feel that this should be instituted world-wide.

Alderman Morehead, that doesn't jive with "I will never try to push anything on anyone." From what you've said, it's your duty to push your beliefs on others. And that's OK. Believe what you believe. Nobody wants to stop you from worshiping in your own way with like-minded people. Nobody would stop you from preaching the word of god... if you were a missionary. But you're not. You're an elected public official. Like it or not, our constitution forbids the state endorsement of religion. Not one specific religion over another, but endorsement of religion. Granted, the Constitution is a very challenging thing to interpret and I may well have a distorted or incorrect view of the 1st amendment. But here it goes;

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

The question isn't whether or not people may pray in school. The fact is that the state cannot endorse or hinder such prayer, no matter how well meaning you may be. That's my understanding. But there are people who have made entire careers interpreting that one line, and neither you nor I are authorities on the matter.

The point is you ask why you cannot be a public official and still have your beliefs. You can. And you should be able to proclaim your beliefs without being ridiculed for them. But what you cannot do is enact legislation promoting or endorsing religion. Period.

You have plainly stated that you would do precisely the opposite. "This should be instituted not just in New Haven, but all over the world. Do what you will in your private life. Push for laws that are informed by your faith. Go with Christ, man, if that's what works for you. But when you say that religion should not just guide your actions, but the actions of others you cross the line.

Posted by: THREEFIFTHS | June 4, 2008 3:51 PM

To all that say that this country was built on godly principles you all need to read the history
of this country. This country was stolen
in the name of god and the bible from the people
who was already live in this land,They had there own goverment and belief in god, Also people in this land was also rape and murder because of there religious conviction,Look at Mary Dyer a quaker who was hanged in boston for being a quaker
and as she was being hanged,They used pray and the bible to justify there action!!! And we can not forget the african slave trade and the white slave master who use pray and the bible to control the slaves!!! Also Mr.Morehead you said that government is trying to remove in god we trust,If you would study the history of this country you would find out that the in god we trust is not the god of creation,But the god of the new world order,It was the freemason who put that in god we trust on the money.For me the bottom line is if pray works than how come
more people who go to church on sunday are loosing
there jobs and homes,How come taxes are sky high in new haven,How come miltary chaplains who have pray for the troops and there still get killed in
this so call war!!! This is why i agree with elm city guy and last mr.morehead you talk about people who hide behind fictitious names,How about
the politician who hide behind there title and do
nothing but sell the people out.

Posted by: Alderman Greg Morehead | June 4, 2008 4:01 PM

James
Like I stated previously, before I was an Alderman in this position, I stood for what i Believed. Does that mean because I am an elected official, my values go out the door? I don't think so. How is it, in other states and cities when officials push for legislation that they believe in, or standing up openly and supporting what they believe, it gets passed. But when a person like myself says that i agree with prayer being in schools not just in New haven but across the world, I get bashed. That shows how twisted the minds of some people are. Just because it goes against what some people believe, you want to down it. Its Ok. At the end of the day, I will still hold onto my beliefs! Bashing me on these posts doesn't phase me. I will still be Greg Morehead and you will still be a nobody because no one knows your real name! If you want to talk "real" person to person, call me. I always leave my number, but no one calls. Don't hide behind a fictitous name. Come out of the dark. Let the world know who you are.lol

Regards,

Alderman Greg Morehead
Ward 22
203.507.7766

Posted by: James | June 4, 2008 5:15 PM

[sigh]

OK, Greg, I though I was pretty respectful and well mannered in my response. Apparently you saw my honest attempt at dialog as an attack. Sorry we couldn't connect. Nobody (at last not I) is saying that you have to check your beliefs at the door. What I am saying is that legislation supporting prayer in school is pretty well established as unconstitutional. Let your beliefs guide you, but don't use your position to force others to think like you. I think that's pretty simple. I also pointed out the contradiction of you saying that you don't want to push your values on anybody else while simultaneously saying that you would support legislation putting prayer in schools. That's contradictory. I don't know how that is bashing, but take it as you like. Apparently you are no more interested in intelligent discourse and understanding than those who judge you ignorant or superstitious for being religious.

As for fictitious names, it allows me to speak my mind where my job and affiliations might not otherwise allow. I'd like to be able to speak my mind while not hurting my career or my family. That doesn't make what I have to say any less valid.

Aside from that, Dennis M. kind of strike me as your stereotypical abortion clinic bombing evangelicals and I don't really want him calling me. I applaud you for posting your name, contact information and for standing behind your beliefs. I don't think it's particularly wise, but it's your call. Just like anonymity is mine.

Posted by: elmcityguy | June 4, 2008 5:19 PM

Nice to know how the Aldermen of the city really feel about us. We're nobodys if they don't know our names. If our names were Kimber, lets just say, I'm sure we'd get listened to and possibly even preferential treatment.

Hey Mr. Alderman, how about you stop worrying about forcing my kid to pray to some fictitious god in school, and worry about facts, like my taxes, which are skyrocketing.

Posted by: True New Havener | June 4, 2008 5:52 PM

Greg,

I think you are just missing the point. And because I respect the leadership you have shown in your community and the whole city, I will respond to your posts.

First -- no one questions your right to believe in God nor to share that belief with others. And many would agree with you that this may indeed do a lot to help the children of our shared community.

Second -- what is at issue is whether you can use the government to bring your religious views to others. You cannot. The United States Constitution, a document you swore to uphold when you became an alderman, is clear on this fact.

Third -- this country was not built to ensure that the religious could use the government to share their religion. Quite the opposite. Many of the founding fathers had what were considered "odd" religions at the time. Others were agnostic or even atheist (you could get elected back then with these views). America's founding fathers were afraid of the impact of organized religion because of the power of the Church of England and many had fled here to escape this, others came from countries like Germany and had a completely different set of religious realities.

The whole idea that our "founding fathers" believed that religion should be a part of the public sphere is actually a myth created by some zealots in the 20th century. That's when the pledge of allegiance added the words "under god," and when our money added the words "in god we trust." Whatever one thinks of these things, they had absolutely nothing to do with the founding of this country.

Finally, I would not want to in any way tell someone how to worship. But I will fight to ensure that you do not take any steps which will take this right away from me or from my children. Your religious beliefs are just that -- yours. In countries where elected officials can push their religious beliefs on citizens, soon despots come to power and the truly faithful find themselves praying in secret and their brethren being arrested for breaking some rule that someone in power pretends has something to do with religion.

While I have generally respected your common sense commitment on things, you are so off base on this one that I would suggest that you calm down, read what people are writing, and think about why your words created this dramatic reaction. Even among people like me who have historically supported you from afar and are proud that you hold your seat with dignity -- many of us are terrified by the slippery slope you suggest.

Good luck.

Posted by: Kirkland | June 4, 2008 6:24 PM

May I just take a moment to say may God Bless all of you for your support and kind words. And as to the negative comments, I will not dignify them with a response. I am however writing to address some things that have been miscontrued in this article.

The fact of the matter is, children are dying. Not only are drug dealers and gangsters dying, but innocent children and by-standers as well. Children are dying in the streets of New Haven and what are we going to do about it? I do not accept even one more death to crime and/or gun violence in this city.

Sir Alderman Greg MoreHead, it is with all humility that I thank you for your support and I count it a priviledge to know that New Haven has elected officials that believe in the power of Prayer. Your work in the community is evident, and you continue to be apart of the solution.

There are only two things that I want to address and that is this Prayer, which was written by Tamisha Antrum. During my speech at the March she was given full credit and during this interview as well.She knows that I am especially grateful to her for having written such a perfect prayer.

Secondly, the purpose behind getting prayer back into schools is to empower our children with a positive message that will help guide the decisions they make both in school and in the community. What goes on in the minds and in the hearts of our children, does effect all of us. Those of you who are not directly effected by gun violence in our community, should be less verbal.

I am proposing a prayer that could be prayed by any religious groups because your children will reserve the right to pray as unto their gods. The point that I tried making to the reporter is that it is not a secret that I am a Christian and I do believe in God however, this prayer is not about whose religion is right or wrong! God said let the wheat and the tare grow together because He (God) will do the seperating.

As it has been said before, not all children are going home to parents and/or homes where morals or values are being instilled. So, if I have to live in a community where such violence is taking place, then you'd best to believe that I have the right to be apart of the solution. I just hope we can all focus on what's really important here. THE CHILDREN! God Bless you, This is just the beginning!

Posted by: Alderman Greg Morehead | June 4, 2008 7:06 PM

Let me first apologize to any of the readers who were offended by me saying that "you will still be a nobody because you hide behind a fictitous name". Some were hurt from that response. I'm sorry! (That is my opinion about readers leaving their real name, some have a problem with coming forward). I am not going to go back and forth with anyone regarding the "prayer in schools" issue. I had to leave my opinions before because some were making me out to be the "bad guy". Everyone has their own beliefs and opinions. Like I said, being an elected official or not, i will still continue to stand for what i believe.
Its good how we can agree to disagree (for some of us).

------------That's it for my posts----

Regards,

Alderman Greg Morehead
Ward22
www.ward22newhaven.com

Posted by: cedarhillresident | June 4, 2008 7:59 PM

wow I finally dared to read this whole thing....Pray in school in a city that houses people of so many different beliefs hmmmm. Not a good thing at all! So can I go dance naked to the goddess Tailtiu (Celtic goddess of earth and summer) because that is my belief?? (really I'm catholic) but the point is in a city with Yale that draws in people and their children from all over the world this in not a do-able thing.

Posted by: Gary Holder-Winfield | June 4, 2008 8:44 PM

I don't think even her argument would work. The supreme court ruled on non sectarian non proselytizing prayer in 2000. It was a no go. In this case by requiring that the prayer be said you also will put yourself squarely up against one of the arguments in the case by a justice (I forget who) that simply the requirement itself forces anyone present to participate in an act of religious worship. Look, I believe in God but I think that those who believe should be more worried about wether there is good in their own homes than in schools. What we should worry about being in schools are parents. By the way, for the sake of disclosure I am running for state representative.

Posted by: Gary Holder-Winfield | June 4, 2008 8:45 PM

I meant to write "God" not good in their homes

Posted by: Ned | June 4, 2008 9:16 PM

"Nothing fails like prayer"
I can hardly wait for the first public stonings, witch burnings, fag bashings and pogroms - don't forget that AIDS is gawd's punishment... "Gimme that old time religion:
Some little gems from the bible (that vile book)

New American Standard Bible:
"How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock."

King James version:
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Hallelujah!

Posted by: robn | June 4, 2008 9:48 PM

Most enjoyable debate NHI readers!!! albeit constitutionally lopsided in favor of the nays. We've outdone ourselves today and I feel its worth highlighting my own personal favorite part....by paraphrasing the late great Molly Ivins... paraphrasing an unknown Texas legislator...

"If you took all the fools out of the (Board of Aldermen), it would not be a representative body anymore."

Posted by: JMS | June 4, 2008 10:09 PM

I understand the motivation here is very likely good and decent. Community problems exist and people want to try and solve them in whatever manner feels most productive and familiar to them. But this is a very clear cut issue. This country was founded as much on the concept of freedom FROM religion as freedom OF religion. Anyone who wants to disagree needs to go read some basic middle school level history books.

If this little misguided school prayer movement gains any ground and actually becomes reality I will pull my kid out of New Haven Public Schools that very instant. Or I'll move to another town... or I'll mortgage myself to the teeth and send him to a progressive private school... or even home school him if I have too. That's how strongly I feel that prayer and religion have absolutley no place in public schools, government or any publicly financed domain. The clearly defined seperation of church and state is the most sacred and critical of all the concepts upon which this country manages to exist. Cross that line and it's downhill from there.

Read your history people.

There's nothing wrong with any religion. I have the highest respect for everyones right to believe and practice however they choose. But that respect needs to be reciprocal. So please keep your beliefs to yourself and away from my schools and my government. And definately keep them the hell away from my child. Your intentions may be good... but to impose your belief system on my child amounts to nothing less then a moral, intellectual and criminal assault in my eyes. And I would defend my childs right to free thought to my dying breath.

JMS

Posted by: AJMC | June 5, 2008 1:13 AM

Hey wait a second. As an American citizen I would like to make it manditory that the pledge of alegence be said by every student at the start of every school day. Oh.and as gar as the prayer that Mrs. Kirkland wants our children to recite. Her prayer is not anything I would want my kids required to say. I am roman catholic and I for one would like it manditory that every student say the lords prayer in latin.

Oh wait, isnt that a violation of some law or somthing? (yes I am being completely sarcastic)

Posted by: THREEFIFTHS | June 5, 2008 3:23 AM

Ms.kirkland
You said that god said let the wheat and the tree grow together because he god will do the seperating.My problem with this statement is that
some one can say who are you to say that god made
this statement.Also who said god was a he,The hare krishna say god is a woman.Look at another one of your statements when you said I am proposing a prayer that could be prayed by any religious groups because your children will reserve the right to pray unto their gods,Again who are you to say that you are proposing a pray for any religious group because there children will reserve the right to pray unto their gods.That should be up to there parents not you,Also as True New Havener has said this is already in the constitution that people have the right to worship god if they want to or if they donot want to.

Posted by: Deuce | June 5, 2008 8:13 AM

I pray to God that Earth doesn't turn into The Planet Of The Apes.

Posted by: jms | June 5, 2008 9:26 AM

Deuce,

Sadly that's probably why Planet of The Apes was such a big hit and continues to stick in our minds. It may be a campy movie but it's also one of the more plausible sci-fi/dystopian outlooks. And while we're talking about sci-fi... I'll quote the Governator from T2... "It's in your (humans) nature to destroy yourselves."

Apes, robots, cyborgs, Orwell, Asimov, Bradbury... all far more accurate and faithful indicators of the state of humanity (past, present or future) then any news outlet, pundit or blogger.

JMS

Posted by: nina | June 5, 2008 10:59 AM

forced prayer, regardless of whether or not it is religion neutral, is trite and an oversimplification that will accomplish nothing but a drill routine for kids. to believe that it will enlighten and uplift is naive.

Posted by: James | June 5, 2008 11:32 AM

JMS - Are you saying that our planet being taken over by hyper-intelligent apes only to be undone by the reanimated corpse of Charlton Heston is more likely than getting accurate news from Fox or CNN?

Well, I glad we found some common ground on which we can all agree!

Posted by: robn | June 5, 2008 1:08 PM

Since we're on the subject of Charleton Heston, could somebody figure out a way to wedge Soylent Green into this thread??? or should we save that for the next school lunch debate?

Posted by: JMS | June 5, 2008 4:37 PM

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!

But the real question is will the sanitation workers union have an issue with driving those big people scooper trucks? And what kind of contract negotiation nightmare will that be?
I can only imagine.

JMS

Posted by: Edward_H | June 5, 2008 7:33 PM

ROBN

Since we're on the subject of Charleton Heston, could somebody figure out a way to wedge Soylent Green into this thread??? or should we save that for the next school lunch debate?

I suppose we could have a Catholic Alderman legislate that schools use Soylent Green for communion. Not only would they get their prayers in but the kicker is Soylent Green is recyclable! A win for the religious and the greenies!

Posted by: JMS | June 5, 2008 9:46 PM

I would like to go on record as officially declaring that the rapid and severe turn that this conversation has taken amounts to the single most entertaining and encouraging pile of words I have ever read here on The Independent. Thank Charleton people still have a sense of humor around here. Soylent Communion sounds like the best name for a heavy metal band I have ever heard. I may start taking guitar lessons just so I can start my own heavy metal band and name it Soylent Communion. We'll sell tons of albums just for having such a cool name.

Keep an eye on the "help wanted" sections of the local papers... I'll be looking for a singer, drummer and bass guitarist real soon.

SOYLENT COMMUNION ROCKS!

JMS

Posted by: king james V | June 6, 2008 12:31 AM

how about to paraphrase old chuck heston
"get your prayers off me you (darned) dirty mopes"

Posted by: elmcityguy | June 6, 2008 8:53 AM

Alderman Morehead,

I'm the one who was offended, and I 100% accept your apology. Religion and politics are never easy subjects to debate, and to combine them will lead to some harsh words back and forth. In rereading the thread, I see how I was goading you into an arguement rather than debate, and for that I apologize.

Posted by: Ned | June 6, 2008 10:28 AM

"Religion and politics are never easy subjects to debate". What constitutes religious debate? A wrestling tag team of Jesus and the Tooth Fairy vs. the "virgin" Mary and Allah?

Posted by: Carolyn | June 6, 2008 10:54 AM

It is very sad to say that all of you in opposition of having Prayer put back into schools, have not shown any concern regarding the issue that has prompted this movement. Why hasn't there been any positive mention as to the lives at stake here? Your views should not be heard because you don't care. How could you consider yourself to be decent citizens of New Haven, when you carry such negative attitudes?

I thought we were all adults here? It's not all about you and your negative energy. You should also consider that when Mrs Kirkland, presents her case, she would have built a pretty good one against the atheist. Think about it... the New Haven School spokeswoman said that Kirkland has her heart in the right place. Take a hint... a positive veiw will always gain respect. No way has America been that blinded by satan and his followers, that they will allow the atheist to dictate the morality of our children. Aren't you a hate group? You hate everything good right? And your very self centered correct?? If im wrong why hasn't anyone addressed the issue at hand? As Kirkland earlier stated "THE CHILDREN"??

Posted by: elmcityguy | June 6, 2008 12:17 PM

**"Religion and politics are never easy subjects to debate". What constitutes religious debate? A wrestling tag team of Jesus and the Tooth Fairy vs. the "virgin" Mary and Allah?**

I'm trying to be nice today Ned.

**You should also consider that when Mrs Kirkland, presents her case, she would have built a pretty good one against the atheist.**

Cases against people's religion are the exact reason WHY we have freedom of and from religion. What are you against, exactly, other than someone doesn't beleive as you do? And why should we be forced into partaking in your ritual? I don't wish my child be indoctrinated in a way that YOU deem appropriate.

Again, I'm going to ask, why not send your child to parochial school if you feel the need to them to pray?

Posted by: Toni | June 6, 2008 12:30 PM

I think that the "prayer" is being totally taken out of context. It can be called an 'affirmation' or a poem, inspriational quote...It is I do believe as I have spoken with Chrisdena as well as with the person who wrote the actual item, Tamisha, that it is about a statement being made by kids from k-12th grade to cause them to rethink their actions for the day. To have hope in their hearts and minds when going about their daily schedule. It doesn't mention anyones God. They can sing songs about "big butts, drinking, guns, bling-bling, flossing etc" and recite them verbatim, but they shouldn't be allowed to recite something positive and mood altering? Parents should and Yes some don't, preach religion, spirituality within their homes, yet they want to send them to teachers to learn everything else. Some of them do not teach and show their children how to be responsible, respectful, sincere and honest in their lives and their interactions with others, and those are the same ones who once they get to school 'wreak havoc' because they have NO HOME TRAINING, as we used to call it. For those who do teach their children AT HOME, peace be with you, GOD BLESS, all thanks to ALLAH, whatever floats your boat. How do we capture the minds in a positive way, of those that go to school in fear or are confused, abused within their homes, and at school, depressed, amongst many other things that they are bombarded with?

Posted by: TONI | June 6, 2008 12:33 PM

Amen to Carolyn!

Posted by: JMS | June 6, 2008 4:50 PM

Dammit... somebody already beat me to it...

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=76

JMS

Posted by: Ali | June 6, 2008 6:17 PM

Toni - I don't agree that the word prayer has been taken out of context. Someone was kind enough on another thread to post the dictionary definition of prayer so I won't bother here. This "affirmation" fits the definition pretty clearly. Explain how this isn't religious...

"Thank you for your mercy. We bless you for your grace, eternally grateful for your protection surrounding this place..."

Who am I thanking and blessing if I'm an atheist?

You are right about kids being able to recite all kinds of less-than-kind things and there are lot of kids who have no sense of respect, responsibility etc. The point is, an affirmation isn't going to fix it. You posed the question "how do we help.." All I can say is, not this way. There is no simple answer.

And Carolyn - the "you don't care about the kids" argument is just absurd. We all live with the whatever negative effects are in our community. Plenty of us are saddened and troubled by what we say on a day to day basis and we DO care. Again, the proposed solution here is what is troubling.

Good intentions don't always produce good results.

Posted by: nina | June 7, 2008 12:13 AM

Alderman Moorehead, you said the following: "I am not going to go back and forth with anyone regarding the "prayer in schools" issue." How can you be an alderman and refuse to discuss an issue with people you are supposed to be representing?

Posted by: Carolyn | June 8, 2008 2:36 AM

Nina who r u exactly?? What gives you the right to question the elected?? U all should leave the alderman alone because believe it or not, lots of people are in support of prayer back in schools....sorry atheist guess you lost this one...don't worry because ain't nobody mad but the devil.....oooopsie!! That's your leader right??

Posted by: THREEFIFTHS | June 8, 2008 7:02 PM

Carolyn
First of all why does a person have to be a atheist not to believe what ms. kirkland is pushing. I dont believe in what ms. Kirkland is trying to push And i am not a atheist. This is like that judge who try to put the ten commandments in a court room and that was shot down by the courts.
I wonder why other alderperson have not spoke on this issue?I tell you what i am going to do and that is find out why the schools are close for Christian and Jewish holidays and the school are open on other religious holidays And last Carolyn
if you believe in the bible than Read Matthew6:5-6 this will tell you how you are to pray as a christian And Timothy2:23 will tell you that you should stay away from things that breed quarrels!!!

Posted by: Edward_H | June 9, 2008 9:02 AM

I tell you what i am going to do and that is find out why the schools are close for Christian and Jewish holidays and the school are open on other religious holidays

Schools in places like NY and CT are closed for Christian and Jewish holidays because so many of the student/staff would take off or stay home on these days keeping the schools open would be inefficient, wasteful and dangerous. Take a look at cities and small towns where there is little to no Jewish population. You will notice theses school systems do not recognize Jewish holidays.