New Haven Independent

Posted by: Deuce | August 1, 2008 8:13 AM

Notice how personal responsibility and self-respect wasn't any of the solutions suggested.

"They took our mall from downtown"

What a productive activity: loitering in a shopping mall.

...

Posted by: New Haven Resident | August 1, 2008 9:01 AM

Was there any part of this discussion that focused on the importance of parenting? All the social programs in the world cannot make up for the role of good parenting in teaching children from earliest childhood how to be self-directed, self-disciplined, responsible, capable, productive adults. Is this in the mix at all? How do you break the cycle? I just don't know.

Posted by: newone | August 1, 2008 9:26 AM

i just want to say that George Brown is 100% correct!! The kids need to find things to do on there own and everyone needs to stop looking to the city to GIVE them something to do.Even if you are bored with nothing to do WHY get in to trouble? These kids are brainwashed to think this way from birth cause this is what they are hearing from there parents instead of how to do for your self and nothing in this world is given to you!STOP BLAMING EVERYONE ELSE FOR WHAT YOU DONT HAVE! I was born and raised in new haven and lived in new haven for thirty years,dint have much at all and im a product of a broken home but i worked hard and im now a married man and a home owner! These kids look up to these dumb sounding rappers and believe what they are saying in there songs and are thinking that they have to do and act like them or you have to be in the streets to make money! PARENTS NEED TO WAKE UP AND BE PARENTS AND STOP HAVING KIDS IF YOU DONT WANT TO RAISE THEM OR AT LEAST TRY! WE ALL KNOW EVERYONE IS NOT PERFECT INCLUDING MYSELF BUT LETS JUST TRY!

Posted by: David Streever | August 1, 2008 9:38 AM

Deuce: Reread the article. George Brown speaks about self-determination & self-respect to a "room full of applause".

It's so easy to judge young kids over the internet, isn't it? Do you know what their lives are like? Do you know they have the tools to have self-respect?

Self-respect isn't some magical thing--it's something you learn or are taught, in the right environment. And, for the record, your comment is incorrect.

Posted by: Downtown D | August 1, 2008 10:45 AM

I would like to comment on the importance of having a social gathering for youth space such as the mall. But I will speak on a more general scale. Youth need a supervised area that they can explore social settings. In a mall, you have store clerks, security guards, shoppers, etc exerting a positive pressure on children to behave. You also have kids exploring their social circles with their own autonomy. This is an important step in the social development of a human - learning how to react and act in public.

So while I agree that parenting and personal responsibility are great solutions to the problems kids are facing, one must also recognize, as Ms. McCarger stated, that kids need a landscape of opportunity. So while the government is restricting the distribution of birth control and preventing the education of our youth on proper use of condoms, we should remember that some classes in our society are not given equal opportunity.

We need to educate our population. Senator Obama's plans for pre-natal and pre-K education are great steps to leveling the playing field. Restructuring of government (local and federal) programs that incentivise poor family planning are other long-term solutions. We need to market our 'education system' to our lower class populations to let them know that there ARE opportunities for all if you keep your mind to it (some has to do with luck and timing).

Yes we need our parents to stand up, but we need our parents to be able to stand up. That means better family planning, more education, and job placement.

Posted by: Deuce | August 1, 2008 10:46 AM

Yes David, Brown has his shit together. Kudos to him. He's a good example for the others. But will they follow him? The article continues:

"Then Fair asked the kids if they agreed with the statement.

Most of them did, but Djuana said, "I guess I feel that, but not all the way. We need support; if we fall, we need somebody to pick us back up. Respecting ourselves the way we should -- somebody should sit down with us and tell us about it."

See? It's always someone else. Someone else to blame, someone else to pick up the pieces. Sounds like you David.

We need more George Browns.

Posted by: Ashley Burney | August 1, 2008 10:55 AM

I just want to say that I agree with the points made by the youth at the forum because youth do need more resources available to them, they deserve these opportunities just as well as anyone else. They're not "blaming everyone else for what they don't have". If anything, the city should be doing all they can to ensure that youth are provided with certain things so that they can stay out of trouble, not making it easier for them to enter the juvenile justice system. The city needs to play a role as well, no one's knocking on Che Dawson's door asking him why if he's director of youth services why isn't he making an effort to provide certain things for youth. Adults really need to wake up and stop looking down on youth but rather try to play a role in uplifting them. I've done my part, but adults need to question what have they done.

Posted by: Downtown D | August 1, 2008 11:00 AM

Deuce: Djuana is 15.

Please take that into consideration.

Kudos to Mr. Brown - one of the most mature things I've heard anyone say is that they are always learning.

Posted by: Deuce | August 1, 2008 11:07 AM

"If anything, the city should be doing all they can to ensure that youth are provided with certain things so that they can stay out of trouble, not making it easier for them to enter the juvenile justice system"

Kids enter the juvenile justice system by committing crimes. There is right and there is wrong. Decisions are made.

Most people in New Haven grew up without the aid of socialist programs. We don't need government telling people how to constructively spend their time, and law-abiding citizens shouldn't be paying for it.

But if anyone is looking to place blame somewhere, start with irresponsible parenting.

Anyone can biologically reproduce, but there is no greater responsibility than parenting.

Posted by: New Haven Resident | August 1, 2008 11:13 AM

Downtown D,

Malls are not a place for unsupervised youth to explore how to behave in public. It is not the role of shopkeepers, shoppers, and security guards to "parent." This behavior should be learned at home early on before a child is old enough to go out in public without parental supervision. Many large malls across the country have failed precisely because they became a place for unruly kids to hang out and "explore social development".

I agree that improved education and family planning resources are needed.

Posted by: Downtown D | August 1, 2008 11:49 AM

New Haven Resident,

You make a good point that "Many large malls across the country have failed etc"

In New Haven (and I moved here after my childhood, so I'm only speaking on what the youth have told me in the city) there aren't places to go for kids. Yes, parental supervision is still needed. My comments are below. I was not defending malls as social gathering places, I was defending the youth in New Haven's ideas that the Chapel Mall was their place to go and attacking Deuce for making narrow-minded comments.

I stand by that "Youth need a supervised area that they can explore social settings" and I agree that a mall is not necessarily the ideal, but it was all the youth in this city had. And now it's gone. I should have also listed that in a mall, you have parents nearby to reign in behavior. You may also have a group of unruly, unsupervised people (mostly teens). I think we need, as a city and not necessarily on a government level, to find things for children to do. The article I linked in my previous comment is a great testament to the work ethic and opportunity that is possible. It's not standard, yet, but it's out there, and we have to work together as a group to get more people (children, teens, young adults, 20 somethings) to believe that 'success' is possible for everyone if you keep working hard.

"I would like to comment on the importance of having a social gathering for youth space such as the mall. But I will speak on a more general scale. Youth need a supervised area that they can explore social settings. In a mall, you have store clerks, security guards, shoppers, etc exerting a positive pressure on children to behave. You also have kids exploring their social circles with their own autonomy. This is an important step in the social development of a human - learning how to react and act in public."

Posted by: James | August 1, 2008 1:17 PM

"It's so easy to judge young kids over the internet, isn't it?... [a]nd, for the record, your comment is incorrect.

ATTENTION NHI COMMENTERS! Beware and let this be a lesson to you. David Streever will not sit idly by and allow you to judge people you know nothing about. On the internet. If you do, he will judge you, knowing nothing about you. On the internet.

Posted by: Edward_H | August 1, 2008 4:54 PM

James

Clearly David Streever is clairvoyant. He can tell what anonymous internet posters are doing, or not doing, in their spare time. He still won't give up the secret of his super powers though. I could make a killing as a eharmony consultant.

Forget the cheerleader. Save David Streever Save the world!!

Posted by: Ashley Burney | August 1, 2008 5:00 PM

Well Deuce, it's not only up to the parents, some parents work 2 or 3 jobs to support their kids. They're not going to always be around to monitor their children's every move. Not only that, why is it that there are more things for young children from elementary and middle school age to do and not as much resources for high school aged kids? Then you guys wonder why people commit crimes. They deserve to have opportunities just as well as anyone else. You adults really need to start being more open-minded because I honestly feel sorry for you.

Posted by: RFL | August 1, 2008 5:11 PM

What's amazing to me is that Streever didn't factor some kind of traffic plan into this story. It seems everytime there is a real issue, he brings up irrelavant issues. kids killing each other has nothing to do with bicycle safety. Speaking of bike safety, hey Streever why don't you keep your unicycle out of traffic. yeah, I've seen you, you can barely control that thing, but you'd be the first to blame a car if you rode into it's path.

Posted by: True New Havener | August 1, 2008 5:12 PM

I think much good can be found here.

First, that a community comes together to educate itself and speak honestly about our problems.

Second, that a young man mentored through LEAP, designed to mentor young people, clearly has learned his lessons well. George Brown is to be commended and so is LEAP.

Third, that the quality of comments here at the Independent is high enough that our community's struggle to solve these problems is continuing through this forum (this is not always the case on other issues).

Finally, while George Brown is right that people need to become self-reliant, it is also the case that we need organizations like LEAP that teach that self-reliance. No doubt he would agree with this position given his role at LEAP. It is not an either/or. We need young people to become self-reliant and we need as a community to build those skills.

Posted by: anon | August 1, 2008 6:46 PM

RFL: Ironically, a lot of this IS a traffic issue. If the streets were safer places to be, our kids would have a place to hang out. Look at anywhere in Europe and you'll see what I mean. Even the major streets outside the downtown are lined with sidewalk cafes and have safe crosswalks and reasonable traffic flows. Also, if you live on a mini-superhighway or have to cross Route 34 just to buy a soda, as many in New Haven do, I have a feeling that you're going to have problems believing that people in the world are out there to help and support you. It's hard to develop self-respect when people (including cops and school bus drivers) are speeding by your house at 50mph at all hours, producing loud noises at 3am, crashing into your neighbors' homes, running reds, trying to kill you as you step into the nonexistent crosswalks, etc.

Posted by: DAFeder | August 1, 2008 9:56 PM

I hear David Streever wears a do-rag, hangs out at the mall, and says "aks" when he means "ask."

No seriously -- show me a person who can't tell the difference between honest disagreement and "judging me," and I'll show you an idiot.

Djuana Lownes makes a good point about knowing "how to represent [herself] in the proper way when it comes to it." But:
a) there are a lot more "proper" situations than most young people think,
b) a lot of people in positions of authority (and opportunity) have a keener ear for "proper" conduct and language than most young people think, and
c) civil society has a longer cultural memory than most teenagers. If you wear your pants down around the jack of your ass, you may not associate that style with gangbangers in prison, but the cop on the corner or the lady at the library might, even if they don't realize that's what they're doing. "That's stereotyping!"? Well, yeah, maybe. But you might have to change the beast once you have accomplished more yourself. Heck, poor David Streever is a nice, educated guy on a unicycle, and see what the knuckleheads on the message board are willing to say about him!

And that final exchange reported, between George Brown, Djuana Lownes, and Laura McCarger -- that's kind of poetry. Thanks for that.

David

P.S. Deuce -- just to set the record straight -- publicly funded education isn't a socialist plot too, is it?

Posted by: David Streever | August 1, 2008 11:38 PM

Deuce,

Yes, a 15 year old feels differently.

I'm sorry you think a 15 year old is adequate to represent a meeting. You ranted about how no one mentioned personal responsibility: I pointed out the obvious hole: you brought up the 15 year old who disagreed with the adult. Congrats. You win this round.

James:
Yes, you are correct. When people make uninformed comments--"no one mentions personal responsibility" yet the article says "Brown brought up personal responsibility to a room full of applause" I do feel compelled to comment. It's clearly a 1st grade reading comprehension level at work.

Maybe Paul Bass changed the article, magically, just for Deuce's eyes, or maybe Deuce can't read. I don't know. I'm just going off what the article says, despite Edward_H's comments: I'm glad you both get off on not properly reading things, making stupid remarks & then attacking people who did read the articles you comment on. I'll try to dumb it down for you next time.

Posted by: David Streever | August 1, 2008 11:45 PM

RFL:
Broken neighborhoods have nothing to do with disaffected youth?

If you want to talk about that, don't bring up something irrelevant here. Go bring it up where it counts, where your statements will be clearly lacking. Anon is right, for the record. When a city abandons you & idiots on a message board condemn... oh wait, these kids don't care about you, because you are just an idiot on a message board. You don't go into their community or attend meetings. Good luck being heard by the people who make the decisions.

Posted by: Deuce | August 2, 2008 9:23 AM

"I was defending the youth in New Haven's ideas that the Chapel Mall was their place to go and attacking Deuce for making narrow-minded comments".

Narrow minded? A place for kids to go? I guess you don't remember the shootings that took place in the Chapel Square Mall. Such a healthy place for the boys and girls.

Posted by: Deuce | August 2, 2008 9:35 AM

Ashley Burney wrote: "Then you guys wonder why people commit crimes. You adults really need to start being more open-minded because I honestly feel sorry for you".

So you think crime is okay just because you're sitting around looking for something to do? You need the government to wipe your ass for you? Go to the library, it's free. Get friends together for some sports in the city parks. Go for a bike ride. Volunteer at a soup kitchen. Get a job. Even sitting in front of the TV or computer is better than selling crack and shooting people.

You feel sorry for us? We're people who made something of their lives. Can you? I feel sorry for the youths who'll end up in jail or in a grave before they're 20.

Posted by: Deuce | August 2, 2008 2:38 PM

"P.S. Deuce -- just to set the record straight -- publicly funded education isn't a socialist plot too, is it?"

Ha ha, no. I believe the government should provide an educational framework. My two sons are enrolled in a magnet school here in New Haven, and I am pleased with it. The magnet and charter school system provides a great alternative to the regular model.

Maybe I come across as a hard core conservative, but I am eally just tough on crime issues. I won't let anyone get away with making excuses for criminal behavior. I also don't think that the government's role is to hold people's hands and wipe their asses.

Posted by: Elm City Denizen | August 2, 2008 10:17 PM

David Streever needs to get over himself.

Posted by: Edward_H | August 3, 2008 9:58 AM

David Streever

Although I can't speak for others here my "stupid comments" are based on your comments in:

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2008/07/post_375.php#010558

posted @ July 27, 2008 12:32 AM

You rant against anonymous posters then claim these anonymous posters should "get off your damn computers for 30 minutes and go make a difference in your neighborhood. Work in the park. Put on an event."

and then on July 28, 2008 1:48 PM

None of you are doing a thing for the community you are commenting on,

To this date you have not been forthcoming as how you were able to ascertain what any of the anonymous posters here are doing ,or not doing, in their spare time. I apologize if you consider calling you clairvoyant was an attack but I know of no other way a normal person could gain such information on anonymous people. Unlike others I have not assumed you are an arrogant turd who does not know what he is talking about. I just fascinated and curious to know how you came about your information.

I can see you quite clearly do not hold much regard for people with whom you disagree and post anonymously. I feel the same way about posters who use the boards here to as free advertising to promote their business. To each their own.

Posted by: enough already | August 3, 2008 8:05 PM

enough already how many more programs you want for these kids....they want a place to go...no more mall ...boohoo....get your boring ass and your friends on the new haven green if you want a place..not a mall were people are shopping...easy shop lifting ....go to green space with your friends and do some work there.....there are things to do..stop blaming the city...

Posted by: jackie | August 3, 2008 9:48 PM

you know, it's not only in "business meetings" where one might want to think about what they wear.

"be who you is" (get it?) if you must, but you're darn naive if you expect people not to judge you on account of it. not to look gangsta isn't the same as selling your soul, after all. fashion exists outside that look, as well.

as for barbara fair, that's great that she was looking casual, but her analogy falls a bit flat. she someone who's apparently accomplished a lot and worked hard: so she can afford to do so.

moreover, emulating the ideal costume of street violence is another thing altogether. especially in a city with so much violence.

Posted by: Steve Ross | August 4, 2008 12:39 PM

"David Streever needs to get over himself."

So does everybody else. This thread is a mockery of an argument. The level of its sophistication and congeniality makes me wonder if you all were raised in malls.

I'm happy the conversation the article is covering has begun; let's hope the dialogue continues so some real solutions can be attempted. In my mind any program, socialist or otherwise, that can in any way help people who are disenfranchised, pissed-off, or bored is a good one.

I say this because I'm an optimist, which has even me rolling my eyes from time to time ... but one can look at this less altruistically as well: if any human being (teen, toddler, octogenarian) is occupied, they acquiesce, and stupid antics and/or violence may for some time be diffused. The success of TV might indicate this to some degree....

If the community programs are rich enough, properly attuned to the participants, and well constructed, lives can be turned around. Of this I have no doubt.

Posted by: enough already | August 4, 2008 2:07 PM

Jackie i agree with you
you dress like a gang member...you talk like a gang member...cmon it's not no fashion statement..
and they dont talk the right way...if it's profiling so be it...

Posted by: James | August 5, 2008 10:28 AM

Lighten up, Steve. Not every article is going to generate The Federalist Papers. David is catching flack because of his arrogant, pedantic, and self-important style of addressing those who he obviously feels are beneath him (e.g. anybody who disagrees with him). Sometime people just need to vent, BS, or remind the world that David is an ass.

For the most part, people posting on NHI aren't looking for solutions. At least not here. They're looking to express an opinion in a liberatingly anonymous manner. Lots of the folks here work in social services, government, or similar fields. Sometimes we get burnt out from towing the company line all day long. Some times we just need to call those people we spend all day trying to help bad names. Some times we all like to shed our politically-correct skins. Some times we all need to just call it like we see it without fear of being scorned because lord knows we couldn't do that in a public setting. Sometimes it helps.

Some people come here for discourse. Some come here to amuse themselves. Some come to preach the clear superiority of the unicycle. Point is, well... there is no point. If you want to read the quality of this thread as a treatise on the mental acuity of your fellow New Haveners, feel free. Everybody is here for their own reasons. If we happen to get a good conversation out of it, or a pizza party for some kids who do good work, great. But the majority of the time all you're going to find on any forum or internet comment section are internet toughguys and self-important nutjobs [insert maniacal Woody Woodpecker-like laughter here].

Posted by: che15 | August 5, 2008 12:42 PM

sorry to say it but new haven can't have any space such as a mall or area to congregate for kids. without putting at least two cops at every corner, which would further distance cops from kids, there really is nothing the city can do. just this past weekend gunfire erupted at a friggin gospel fest. last summer the kids from new haven were being bused into milford mall. what happened? the town of milford was forced to put a substation in the mall and have 6 extra duty cops on durring the weekend when kids from new haven were being bused in. every kid deserves a chance but the kids in this town are tryng the patience of alot of hard working decent people. the sad thing is these kids are ok when alone however get a group of 3 or more and the attitude starts. i see the attempts at help and i hear the complaints of the kids but i am getting sick of them and there destruction of my city

Posted by: Steve Ross | August 6, 2008 12:56 PM

James,

"Lighten up, Steve." I know, and you're right. I sort of felt like a boner after posting that one.

The funny thing is that this forum is the only one I post on precisely because it's thoughtful and sincere most of the time -- the antics and lunacy are minimal; I guess I want it to be more than what it is, though.

Posted by: James | August 6, 2008 2:46 PM

Steve, I too had some regret after my post. People do come here to make a difference amongst the other reasons mentioned. People do care and are passionate and this is a great place for people to sound off. We just have to realize that often it is just sounding off. Anonymity can bring out the bravado in us all. My apologies for jumping on you.

That being said, I don't think that this will ever be a forum where the community comes together to solve problems. There are better settings, though I don't believe that an internet forum is inherently flawed as a problem-solving tool. Sites like seeclickfix.org prove just that, and we certainly could have a community forum with adequate participation that would help people communicate with their representative and each other. I just don't think that this is the place. Keep up the optimism, buddy. Somebody needs to and it ain't gonna be me.

Posted by: Deuce | August 6, 2008 3:41 PM

"Anonymity can bring out the bravado in us all"

Just because a poster is anonymous doesn't mean that their comments are less valid than someone who uses their own name. For instance, I have the same name as my father, so I post under the name I use as a 'stage name' in the New Haven music scene.

There are people here who use their real names. I still don't know who they are. Do they think they're famous or something? Do they think using their real name gives them any more credibility on a message board than someone who doesn't?

There isn't anything I write here that I wouldn't say in a live forum.

There are things about my City of New Haven that I don't like. I don't like the criminal element and their excuse makers. I don't our politicians.

And I'm going to say so in these forums. But ultimately, it's just a message board.

Posted by: James | August 6, 2008 4:27 PM

Deuce, I agree. "Walt Bradley" is no more real to me than "threefifths." No offense to either, just the first examples that came to mind. I wasn't knocking anonymity. If you don't believe me, just look me up in the phone book. Under "James" :)

PS. Where is threefifths? I haven't seen or heard from him/her nearly as much as we used to? Where has our little fraction gone?

Posted by: downtown d | August 6, 2008 5:28 PM

Deuce and everyone else:

This is way too late, but there is a Public Meeting for the Board of Aldermen in the Aldermanic chamber starting at 6pm tonight. The subcommittee meeting is the Public Safety Subcommittee, and the topic of this article (amongst other items) is sure to be addressed. That is, if we as a public go and make them address it.

See you there.

Posted by: Deuce | August 6, 2008 9:44 PM

> James wrote: I wasn't knocking anonymity.

I know. It was the unicycle clown who made the big issue out of it. What was his name?

Posted by: Deuce | August 6, 2008 9:47 PM

Downtown D, by the time I read your post it was too late. I think those meetings should start at 7. They're probably at 6 so that we don't have time to get there after work, etc.