New Haven Independent

Posted by: Gary Doyens | September 25, 2008 8:37 PM

Mayor:

You play the rascism card too often. It's not helpful. It's like Chicken Little. Everytime you do it over such small, perceived or real slights, labeling your detractors as "hate" groups, you lessen the impact of what you will say when and if, something big ever happens. All you're doing is fanning the flames you claim to hate. Then again, maybe that's your real strategy.

Posted by: JackNH | September 26, 2008 4:10 AM

As a (non-Mexican) third-generation Hispanic, I'm not so sure that flying other countries' flags on the green is a good idea, either-- including Irish and Italian. Amherst MA flies the UN flag year-round. Excellent, excellent idea.

Posted by: Daniel Sumrall | September 26, 2008 9:40 AM

Gold & the CWP are just a bunch of New England crazy--irrational, loud, and stubbornly insistent--and deserve no notice. This 'flag-flap' is a manufactured issue and a distraction.

Oh and New Haven doesnt celebrate St. Patrick's Day, New Haven celebrates the week before St. Patrick's Day. Apparently, the calendars here have always had a printing error.

Posted by: Bruce | September 26, 2008 10:20 AM

I don't know which flag code Dustin Gold was reading, but flying another country's flag on the same pole below the American flag is perfectly acceptable.

"No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States "

I looked for any exceptions specific to Hispanic countries' flags, but couldn't find any.

Posted by: Cheri | September 26, 2008 10:31 AM

"He claimed he has no problem with the Mexican flag flying on the Green as long as it's on a pole separate from the American flag. Putting them together violates federal flag-flying guidelines, he claimed."

... We're a country literally made up of immigrants...let's fly all the damn flags and get over this nonsense.

Posted by: Bruce | September 26, 2008 10:36 AM

...oops, I read a little further:

"When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace."

Still, I don't recall seeing them out there protesting non-Hispanic flags.

Posted by: Steve Ross | September 26, 2008 10:49 AM

Bigots are so funny!

Posted by: party's over | September 26, 2008 11:07 AM

Someone actually wasted time on creating federal flag-flying guidelines?
How about flying the flag of whichever nation holds the most U.S. treasury securities?
Or maybe fly the flag of whichever country pays the most for a member of congress or the senate?

Posted by: Josh Smith | September 26, 2008 10:21 PM

I say we get a whole bunch of different flags from different nations and fly ALL of them on the Green. Right now. On the SAME POLE. Especially flags from Hispanic countries.

I can see it now... "And now, for the 11 o'clock news. Hispanic flags were flown today on the New Haven Green, all on the same flagpole. Minutes later, witnesses say Community Watchdog Project members spontaneously combusted in a fit of rage. In related news, witnesses shrugged, walked away, and went out for some Mexican food."

The CWP will now and hereafter be referred to as the "Community Drama Queen Project". All in favor? All opposed? Seeing none opposed, I vote to pass this measure. :P

Posted by: Alan Felder | September 27, 2008 1:28 AM

African Americans need to wakeup from their complacency and arises from their passivity. Their social, economic, and political conditions are deteriorating day by day.
(1) Social: 90% of the drugs entering the U.S.A come from Mexico, and causing havoc in the African American community.
(2) Economic: Illegal immigration is not helping African Americans who are the first to join the jobless army, in New Haven the unempolyment rate is around 21%.
(3) Political: Illegal immigrants are the new social commodity, African Americans are once again order to set at the back of the bus, and their concerns are to take back set behind illegals.

Posted by: Ecuadorian Community | September 27, 2008 11:15 AM

The Mexican community was here 60 years ago and they have all relevant rights to put the glorious flag in the Historic Green of New Haven..
We completely agree with them and we want to express our totally support to Mr. Mayor John De Stefano...

Posted by: Josh Smith | September 27, 2008 5:54 PM

Alan, where are the sources for those stats? I'd like to see some links. I highly doubt your sources are credible even if you do have sources for those "facts". I also doubt the majority of drugs originate in Mexico. The drugs may pass through Mexico on their way here, but I doubt very much that 90% of illegal drugs in the US are made there. Mixing opinions with made-up statistics and half-truths is like drinking and driving: It's irresponsible and you shouldn't do it.

In any event, please learn to (a) do some research, (b) back up your claims with statistics, and (c) list your sources so we can all verify the credibility of those sources. After you've learned to do that, teach your hate-group buddies from the Community Drama Queen Project to do the same. Then, come back and post whether you lied about those statistics or if you have facts from credible sources. Then we'll make up our minds as to what's really true. Until then, please stop writing on the internet.

Posted by: Alan Felder | September 28, 2008 1:41 AM

Josh I'not hiding behind a key pad like a coward, I publicly state my case to the African American community, which by the way in New Haven is like a southern plantation. If you or Prince John would like to have a public debate on the issue name the time and place.

Sources: Google Blacks and illegal immigration.
(1)Immigration and African American Employment Opportunity, by George j.Borjas, Jeffrey Grogger, and Gordan H. Hanson from the National Bureau of Economic Research.
(2)U.S. Department of State: 2007 International Narcotics Control Strategy Report(INCSR)
(3)Center for Immigration Studies
(4)The Heritage Foundation
(5)NumbersUSA.com
(6)(FAIR)Federation for American Immigration Reform
(7)The Harvest Institute
(8)American for Legal Immigration
(9)Foxvalley Citizens for Legal Immigration
(10) Must I go on?

Posted by: Gary Doyens | September 28, 2008 12:15 PM

Josh Smith:

Your comments regarding Alan Felder's post are over the top and unwarranted. People who post on here are allowed to do so based on their opinions regardless of whether they are rooted in facts or not. As it so happens, Felder seems to have sources for his stats and other comments.

One of the great ironies about posting on the NHI, is that facts in hand or not, when people like you post those kinds of comments, it's clear tha facts don't really matter. You just disagree as viciously and personally as possible.

Posted by: Gary Doyens | September 28, 2008 1:18 PM

Josh:

In case you are wondering about the drug trade from Mexico -- read below. Google it. I wasn't even looking for it and up this story pops...

Report: Mexico produces 80 percent of U.S. meth
The good news is that we've stomped out all the little hillbilly labs. The bad news is that we've still got "superlabs" operating right across the border. In the first three weeks of April, the feds seized about $30 million of meth, a good chunk of which was bound for Kansas City, McClatchy reports.

Posted by: Josh Smith | September 28, 2008 1:40 PM

I've stated my real name here, so it seems I'm not "hiding behind a key pad" either. Or a keyboard, because that's what it's called... Anyway, some of those sources you gave are more than a little biased, but I'll let that slide. I think the readers here are smart enough to figure that out.

One thing I was thinking about was this: If it's not a race issue, and you'd have no problem with the illegal immigrants if they attained legal US citizenship, why don't you ask Dustin to turn the group into something positive? If you all stopped protesting and wasting the city's time, and set up a group that helped illegals attain legal citizenship, wouldn't that be a much better way to move towards your goal of having no illegal immigrants in New Haven? Because that's what you want, right?

You can say "Oh, it's not our job to do that", but it isn't Elm City Cycling's job to better conditions for cyclists, either, and that group still does all it can to make things better for all the cyclists in the community (and not just themselves -- it benefits everyone who rides a bike). Why don't you all step up and do things to get illegal immigrants legal status here? Stop squawking and start DOING.

Posted by: Josh Smith | September 28, 2008 4:38 PM

Gary:

When people like me post those kinds of comments? People like me? First of all, you don't even know me personally, so please don't make sweeping generalizations about "people like me". Thanks, chief.

Second, regarding "those kinds of comments", I suppose if you or Alan wish to post your opinions rather than facts, you're entitled. The First Amendment hasn't been taken away (yet). However, you'd catch more flies with honey than vinegar -- attacking someone for calling out your group on the invalidity of your statistics is much, much less effective than posting better statistics and citing each source so there is no question as to where your data came from.

Not to mention that you're saying I disagreed "as viciously and personally as possible". I wasn't attacking Felder personally at all; I don't know what you read, but I was clearly questioning the lack of substance behind his facts. Did I once engage in name-calling? (Besides the "Community Drama Queen Project", because that's pretty much what the group is... they're not helping to get illegals legal status, so it's just a bunch of people crying about illegals being here.) No, I did not once personally attack Alan, as you claimed I did. The message I tried to get across was: Do some research (which he then did), and come back with some credible sources for your facts (which he did, and it seems some of the sources listed were very questionable). He also did not match up which piece of information came from which source, which is the correct way to cite your sources.

In any event, we're all still waiting for "X came from Y, on page or paragraph Z."

Posted by: Dustin W. Gold | September 28, 2008 9:25 PM

Josh,

1) Illegal aliens cannot obtain legal status from within the United States, they have to begin the process from their native country.

2) Our organization is against any form of amnesty or path to citizenship.

3) Illegal alien is not a race, and only 75% of illegal aliens come from Mexico - we would like them all to leave, so your "race" issue does not hold up.

4) Where are your sources? You only sited opinion.

Posted by: Gary Doyens | September 29, 2008 1:01 AM

Josh:

For the record: I'm not associated with any illegal immigration group including Dustin Gold's. But I thought it was pretty funny that you claim the majority of illegal drugs don't come from Mexico - and without even looking for it, I stumble on an article that says differently.

As for people like you, Josh, and yes, people like you, its your personal attacks I don't like. The name calling, the race baiting. In your zeal to promote or support your point of view, you go to the gutter. It's not necessary and it's precisely why I called the mayor out on it when this article first appeared. He is a master at pitting one race against another - divide and conquer. We are worse off for it.

Posted by: Steve Ross | September 29, 2008 12:53 PM

Dustin Gold,

"2) Our organization is against any form of amnesty or path to citizenship."

Why? If your organization seeks to end the exploitation of illegal immigrants, why not help them become citizens?

Posted by: Nestor Makhno | September 29, 2008 9:23 PM

I hate flags but if pushed would support a pirate flag or maybe a Dustin Doyens flag, of course only if the latter were hung upside down.

Posted by: Josh Smith | September 30, 2008 11:15 PM

Well, well, it seems I've garnered the attention of Mr. Dustin Gold. As for where my sources are, which statistics are you referring to? I don't recall posting any stats here. Opinions, by their very nature, need not have cited sources. I thought that was obvious, but perhaps it wasn't.

So, Dustin... now that that's out of the way, where can I find a source that verifies your claim that "only 75% of illegal aliens come from Mexico"? I'll wait for your source for that tidbit, along with Gary's and Alan's sources, which I so patiently keep requesting to no avail.

Gary: You said you found an article that says 80% of meth in the US is produced in Mexico, and you didn't post a link to the article, so I don't even know if that's a valid claim from a reputable source. Telling someone to Google something isn't exactly citing your sources, but you're getting warmer! :) In any event, even if that were true, there are a LOT more illegal drugs than meth out there. 80% of meth doesn't equal 90% of drugs... sorry. I think that's a bit of a reach. And no, I'm not attacking you personally -- this is an attack on your facts, or lack thereof. "People like me" would like to know where you're getting your data from.

And let's just be frank about it, Gary -- it's not the "personal attacks" you don't like, since I haven't been personally attacking anyone. I suspect you just don't like the fact that I'm for illegal immigrants' rights. I also think you don't like the fact that I'm questioning your data, Alan's data, and Dustin's data, in order to let the public verify what all of you are saying to be either true or untrue.

All you guys can either (a) post your sources, with no broken links or outdated data, or (b) keep arguing with me until the cows come home because you want me to "go away" just as much as you want illegals to "go away". I feel that Option A will tell the public you care about your cause. I also think that Option B will tell the public that you care about nothing more than silencing people who oppose you.

Posted by: David Streever | September 30, 2008 11:50 PM

Is Dustin Gold really a factor in ANYONE's day?

His geriatric oldsters stopped me on the steps--I was conducting business at city hall--when I said, "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested" they became argumentative.

Gold, you're the laughing stock of new haven, and I don't think anyone takes you seriously, but if I'm really going to be given a hard time everytime I walk down the steps, I'm going to look at my legal options.

Got it?

You can hold any thought or asinine opitions you want, but you don't even live here, and if you're going to hold me up when I am going in and out of city hall, you should at least have the decency to ruin your day waiting for me sometime.

I put in a lot of hours a week--roughly 25--doing unpaid volunteer work, in addition to 60 hours of personal, paid, work a week for my own company. I don't need to be delayed by geriatric jerks everytime I walk in & out of City Hall.

If your protest negatively impacts my ability to use city hall, you are infringing on my rights. I'll politely ask you to ask your people to get out of my way when I politely tell them I am not interested.

Posted by: Josh Smith | October 1, 2008 12:23 AM

I'd like to repeat what Steve asked: Why are you guys against a path to citizenship for illegals? That is ridiculous. If your goal is to rid New Haven (and the country) of illegals, you can move towards that goal by helping them become legal. If everyone's legalized, there will be no illegal immigrants, and that solves the issue of businesses getting away with paying them substandard wages.

If your organization cared so very much about the illegal immigrants' rights and wanted to truly free them from their slavery (as is stated on the following CWP website -- pay attention now, because this is how you cite a source correctly -- http://www.watchdogproject.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=306&Itemid=255) then you would move towards a plan that legalizes all immigrants and therefore gives them access to laws that protect U.S. workers from those who try to pay someone lower than minimum wage. Care to explain why you're acting counterproductive to your own goals?

And would you also like to explain why your group is so very unprofessional and negative? Writing "John DeStefano and his political cronies told me that CWP is a racially divisive hate group" on your corporation's website (again, at the above cited source) is hardly professional behavior. I don't know if you've been paying attention around here, but those who are working with the city to achieve positive results are getting just that, and those who whine, complain, and generally spout negativity don't seem to have as much luck getting things done.

Posted by: Alan Felder | October 1, 2008 12:29 AM

Josh America already has an underclass, why would I support other countries underclass; competing with America's underclass. I believe illegal immigration is a wicked system, perpetuated by wicked people.
Source: The U.S. Human Development Index Report