New Haven Independent

Posted by: C | October 7, 2008 11:39 AM

OMG the guys who started the fight were from East Haven!!! No way! Nobody from there ever wants to start unprovoked fights...

Stay in East Haven @ the gym with the rest of the meat heads

Posted by: jawbone | October 7, 2008 12:07 PM

Sorry they got injured. Downtown is a dangerous place. It is not a bit more safe than the day I moved here 16 years ago.
Those thugs should make the 'darwin awards'. Bet they didn't think they were picking a fight with the guy who oversees the NHPD...
Maybe now the city government will begin to move off the dime with regards the the continuing downward spiral of quality of life downtown.

Posted by: B | October 7, 2008 12:09 PM

A non-Italian from East Haven feels like it's "us against them"...I can't imagine why?
This is what years of intolerance breeds.
Enjoy our airplanes ...!

Posted by: jeffreykerekes | October 7, 2008 12:25 PM

I am sorry to hear about the assaults and glad to hear Sandman and Smutts are ok. I am sure they were not disrespecting anyone. I think it is a good thing that Goldfield went to the police as someone needed to do that and its commendable of Sandman to step in an help protect Smuts who was wrongly attacked.

I wish a speedy recovery to all.

Posted by: Bill C | October 7, 2008 12:39 PM

The whole "disrespect" thing is getting way out of hand. I mean, people need to stop using that as an excuse for fighting and tumultuous behavior. Disrespect is not a crime nor an excuse or justification to commit a crime. I really don't see how shutting a door could be considered "disrespect" nor do I see how it could be considered a racial thing. Disrespect goes a lot further than this Smuts incident, urban lifestyles revolve in respect it seems. People need to get over it and learn to ignore people who are disrespectful.

Posted by: Ellis Copeland | October 7, 2008 12:45 PM

This is a problem bar that is increasingly out of control, but protected from complaint by the cop clientele

Posted by: robn | October 7, 2008 12:52 PM

All politics aside...its nice to see that representatives of our city did their best to try and calm the situation down. It would have been justified if Rob fought back and kicked the crud out of this guy but he didn't and I repect that.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | October 7, 2008 1:05 PM

Carl did the right thing getting help, Sandman did the honorable thing stepping in. As Robn said politics aside sorry you guys went through that. And I am glad no one got badly hurt. But I may have to call ya's slugger now!

Posted by: Streever | October 7, 2008 1:14 PM

Sorry to hear about it all!

I think Smuts & Co did the right thing. Too bad Roland Lemar wasn't there, I heard he can handle himself in an altercation ;-).

Smuts, I'm going to nominate you for "The big hurt" award in city politics. Broken arms & goose eggs, be careful out there.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | October 7, 2008 2:03 PM

oh and ps...not sure if the link will work but I dedicate this to Smuts and Sandman... (may have to cut and past)
http://www.rocky.hustej.net/soundtracks/ost_rocky_3_1983/08 - Gonna Fly Now.mp3

Posted by: Deuce | October 7, 2008 2:26 PM

Ellis Copeland wrote: "This is a problem bar that is increasingly out of control, but protected from complaint by the cop clientele".

A problem bar? This is the first incident that I ever heard of at Christy's and I'm a patron. It attracts a peaceful clientel. This is an isolated incident.

Posted by: walt bradley | October 7, 2008 3:09 PM

When did Asians move to 'Staven?

Posted by: Exiled Italian Shill | October 7, 2008 4:26 PM

East Haven you say? Perhaps Mayor Almon has released her agents of destruction into the city targeting the senior staff and members of the board of aldermen. Why?

Tweed Airport and the fight between Staven and New Haven. First she sends the Asians as she will hold back their hordes of Roman legions for use later.

Just my take on things.

Posted by: Josh Smith | October 7, 2008 6:57 PM

That really sucks. People will start getting violent for no reason at all these days, and that's terrible. Poor Rob and Moti... First they have to deal with crazy guys coming to aldermanic meetings yelling that their driveways aren't being snowplowed in the winter or something, now they're getting wailed on by drunk guys outside bars. Unbelievable. You "thought" you heard someone talking about you and disrespecting you? What kind of a defense is that? Next time, fellas, if you're itchin' for a fight, go to a bar back in East Haven... I hear some of them like to fight things too, like airports, and economic development. :P

Posted by: oswald | October 7, 2008 7:08 PM

Seems like alot of cops for a simple bar fight.

Posted by: THE YOUTH TRUTH | October 7, 2008 8:01 PM

... NOW THESE OFFICIALS SEE WHAT THE HELL WE AS YOUNG PPL AND AS PPL IN NEW HAVEN GO THROUGH ALL THE DAMN TIME. I DONT MEAN TO SOUND HARSH BUT ITS THE TRUTH WE GO THROUGH THIS TYPE OF STUFF JUST 10 TIMES WORST.

Posted by: anon | October 7, 2008 8:46 PM

if the victims had been as unknown as the perpetrators, all of them would have been arrested. So Smuts and Sandman, be grateful for your positions and that your general character is already well known by police and new haveners - it saved you hands down from probable cause for arrest.

I hope you all realize that and if you don't, you know zero about police work. I hope also you appreciate it and don't take it for granted.

I am sorry for your injuries and wish quick mending.

Posted by: tom | October 7, 2008 8:47 PM

This location is very safe. I have been there before with my friends. I have to say, when I saw the off duty cop pull out his handcuffs I knew things were going to be alright. This was no time for me to pull out my cuffs with the pink feathers. That phone had to have been a special police phone. The cops came from all over. Thanks NHPD I hope this helps in your contract talks. For a moment I thought this incident was a joke involving the Village People, but then I did not see the Native American Indian guy.

Posted by: Ryan | October 7, 2008 9:58 PM

this sucks! people come in from another town and New Haven gets the bad rap! I am sure that this was unprovoked. I wish you all the best. The boys from East Haven didn't know who they were messing with. They thought they were easy prey. Ha!!! This is like the best Revenge of the Nerds. And let that be a lesson to you. Don't mess with Bobby!! He's da man!

Smokin!!!

Posted by: Har Bons | October 7, 2008 11:58 PM

Alderman Lemar and Alderman Rhodeen totally could have taken them--especially if their Red Sox viewing was interrupted.
A quick recovery for Moti & Smuts (glad that Chrissy & Carl are okay!)

Posted by: Miss Manners | October 8, 2008 5:11 AM

The East Haven pugilists were obviously in the bar first, and had the door open so they could hear the music. Smutts, the latecomer, should have asked if they minded him closing it. If he had done this, and they had objected, then he should have moved to another part of the bar.

A very painful lesson in developing interpersonal skills. I hope he has learned from it.

Manners are important.

Posted by: eastshoreguy | October 8, 2008 7:25 AM

Everybody was kung-fu fighting . . .Those cats were fast as lightning . . . .In fact it was a little bit frightning . . . But they fought with expert timing

Posted by: Deuce | October 8, 2008 8:07 AM

So Miss Manners is excusing violent behavior? Guess what? Those four punks don't own the bar. They were not justified in throwing the first punch. Over a .. door?

Posted by: Amazed | October 8, 2008 9:51 AM

Amazed to see 20 squad cars called out just to deal with Smutt's shiner. Chief Lewis told us recently he didn't have enough cops to provide just one squad car for the whole of East Rock.
Can you believe it. Why do we bother paying our taxes.

Posted by: Miss Manners | October 8, 2008 11:44 AM

Deuce

I neither applauded nor condemned the violence. I only pointed out the incident was caused by bad manners.

Posted by: James | October 8, 2008 12:02 PM

@AMAZED
We pay out taxes so that 40% of the population doesn't have to work (it's such a chore to have to earn your keep!). Also to fund no-show government jobs. Also for heated bus stops. Also for homeless shelters for the entire homeless population of Southern Connecticut. Also so the Mayor can have a raise while cutting city jobs. Gosh, don't you know that by now :)

@Miss Manners
Even if that was the case (which I think is absurd) how about, "Pardon me, sir, but you seem to keep closing the door while my friends and I were trying to enjoy the musical entertainment. Would you mind leaving it ajar?" Manners, if that we a contributing factor, go both ways. Then again, I don't think that lowlifes who attack rather non-threatening individuals like the slender Smutts and the cuddly Sandman are too big on manners in the first place.

Posted by: east havener | October 8, 2008 12:58 PM

As a life-long East Havener, I think that people making postings that stereotype people who live in certain areas and certain towns does not help with problems such as this.
If you read the Register, I believe only one of the men in the altercation was from East Haven.
Rob is one of the nicest guys I've ever met who works for the City. His efforts to diffuse the situation are truly indicative of the type of person he is. And, I think his statement of "This could happen anywhere" is absolutely true.
But, again, here we are talking about an arrest of people who attacked others because they felt they were being discriminated against and then people post stereotypes about people from East Haven. That doesn't help -- we should all try not to stereotype. What a difference it would make in this world.

Posted by: Ben | October 8, 2008 1:28 PM

ANON,
Your statement is entirely inaccurate.
I know many cases in New Haven where only the instigator is arrested as it was obvious that the victim was acting in self defense.

Posted by: yadda | October 8, 2008 1:30 PM

Miss Manners: try to get some kinda clue.

Posted by: Greg | October 8, 2008 2:01 PM

I was born and raised in New Haven and never worried about crime. Over the past decades that changed. Why? I'll tell you. People in New Haven feel they have a right to do whatever they feel like doing. Whether it is stoping in the travel lane to pick up someone or to sell drugs. The police were cut off at the Ba$%# by Pastore allowing a free for all throughout the city. City politics dictates what is done. Barbra Fair raised drug dealers for her income and complains when they are arrested and sent to Virginia to serve time. I pick her as an example because she has the biggest mouth. There are alot more. If all laws and city regulations were followed maybe the city would be safer. As far as the out of town people... they come here because the NHPD allowed lawlessness and they could get away with it. Now that we have a chief with some balls, not like Ortiz and Wearing maybe New Haven will be safe again.

Posted by: Deuce | October 8, 2008 3:11 PM

"I neither applauded nor condemned the violence. I only pointed out the incident was caused by bad manners".

The incident was "caused" by an unprovoked physical attack. There were no grounds for throwing the first punch. Closing a door to the outside due to cold temperature is not bad manners. If you don't condemn violence, then you must approve of it.

Posted by: Streever | October 8, 2008 5:55 PM

Ben,

That is Anon's shtick. Hide behind a fake name to make inflammatory statements to support.... what? A negative, pessimistic, non-real view of the city....

Posted by: anon | October 8, 2008 8:05 PM

I did not mean to be inflammatory and I apologize. Reading it, I do see it came off too strong. Let me try again.

I think, knowing rob and moti, this incident is exactly as they said. I hope they are on the mend and I commend them for handling it the only way there was to handle it.

to answer Ben precisely, I also know plenty of cases, but just taking what we know in this one -- this is speculative, because we are not the cop who responded -- this one wasn't one of those cases.

there were bruises on both sides. considering one comment from the sociopath who did this -- the east haven guy -- I could see it being a case where there were claims on both sides and bruises on both sides. that often leads to probable cause on both sides.

the cops have no duty to investigate the heck out of these things, and cops will tell you so.

So, if it was one of those cases, it is a good thing that they both are known for their credibility and for being nonviolent people, because the police have every right to take that into account.

As city leaders, and with Rob overseeing police, this is a good opportunity for them to be aware of that and not take it for granted. That is all I wanted to point out.

i support them and don't want to suggest otherwise.

I want to respond to to miss manners, because it cracked me up. This is the sociopathic version of miss manners where neutral acts no one would think would provoke, do provoke people of a criminal mentality. That is just the thing about it -- there often is no way to predict when you will be victimized because the behavior doesn't follow that ever predictable thing - community norms for civility.

It wasn't bad manners -- that is probably why our city guys never saw it coming. next thing you know, they are on the ground!

Posted by: Bob Abuey | October 9, 2008 12:18 AM

To Youth Truth - Very good point that all should pay attention to.

And to Greg - A big "hoorah" to you too!

Posted by: strangerthanfiction | October 9, 2008 2:11 AM

I disagree with the line of thinking that blames the victims for the attack of the aggressors. Two parties were involved in the fight. But that doesn't mean that both are at fault. The one who threw the punch and came at Smuts was dead wrong. He did nothing to deserve being punched and slammed into the ground. Everything else is speculation and rumor.

Posted by: Deuce | October 9, 2008 8:05 AM

"They apparently wanted to hear the music through the door".

Was "Enter Sandman" playing?

Posted by: robn | October 9, 2008 9:02 AM

I have to agree with EASTHAVENER that we shouldn't react to this incident with bigotry. The tax duress that we're all experiencing in New Haven county is due to an antiquated tax system and the only way we can fix it is by regionalizing and working in partnership with our neighbors...including East Haven.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | October 9, 2008 10:56 AM

Alright Deuce
METALLICA!!!

Staveners have been doing business in New Haven for years! They come here to buy drug and sell drugs....New Haven is the East Haven youth stomping grounds to man hood. Please I grew up here is is an old war like Yale and Harvard, or your mama jokes. It is something that will alway be their and remember most staveners lived worked or played in New Haven their is a common bond despite the joke and digs.

It is all in fun.

Posted by: Doug F. | October 9, 2008 12:51 PM

Welcome to the party! Now that it's happened to one of their own, maybe the City Officials will actually do something about the crime and violence downtown.
I hope you guys are OK though!

Posted by: grey | October 9, 2008 1:57 PM

I have to say this is the funniest independent comment debate i've read in a while. especially when the one guy said "enjoy our airplanes!" and when the other guy said "was 'enter sandman' playing?"

Posted by: JMS | October 10, 2008 9:26 AM

Metallica in their prime in front of a half million fans... a little tribute to Slugger Sandman...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QP-SIW6iKY&feature=related

... I am glad to hear the situation was diffused before anyone was more seriously injured.

JMS

Posted by: anon | October 10, 2008 2:34 PM

To strangerthanfiction:

If you are talking about me, when you say you don't agree with "that thinking," I can tell you that isn't my thinking, and it isn't even what I said. It isn't what cops do, or should do, either when they are evaluating a scene and isn't what I suggested here at all.

there comes a point on these boards sometimes, where you could spend all day explaining things to posters whose reading comprehension just isn't there.

Posted by: insider | October 10, 2008 9:46 PM

Anon

Your statement about the bar fight is a little off, I'm sure there status didn't hurt but no cop is going to put his or her job on the line to simply get an attaboy from a politican.

If you bothered to read the report there were several patrons who corroborated Smutts version of the incident as well as Sandmans, and the arrestee as well. So maybe you should take a chapter from your reading comprehension lesson and apply.

Posted by: anon | October 11, 2008 2:26 PM

To Insider -- I don't get the hostility. And I haven't read the police report. is it even available yet? Is that what you meant by report?

Unless perpetrators come out and admit - yeah, we did this over nothing - they did nothing to us - it is more complicated, isn't it? You act like its easy -- like the job of cops is always clean cut, like every crime scene is clean cut, and that every cop is motivated to talk to witnesses.

Also, there is nothing in this story or in anything that I wrote suggesting that anyone was motivated to get an attaboy -- you presume. That's just junk.

Like I said, it doesn't pay to try to point out anything.

Posted by: William Kurtz | October 12, 2008 7:06 PM

If we're going to talk about reading comprehension, then let's look at what was said. First of all, from the original story:

"Tony admitted punching Sandman. He told the cops he "was sorry" and added: "I want to be honest, I also punched the other man [Smuts] in the head.""

Admittedly, he also claimed that someone--the "guy with the beard" pushed him, but witnesses don't seem to corroborate that.

Second, from the original "Anon" post:

"be grateful for your positions and that your general character is already well known by police and new haveners - it saved you hands down from probable cause for arrest.

I hope you all realize that and if you don't, you know zero about police work."

Sounds like a pretty clear explanation of how at least one commenter here thinks the police work: show up and arrest everyone who might have been involved.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I know a little more than "zero." And in fact, I'm closely-acquainted with a person who was recently sucker-punched in bar fight which someone else started, and he never even came close to being arrested. No doubt in some instances, the responding officers don't take the time to figure out what really happened, but one hopes they get it right more often than not.

Posted by: Anon | October 13, 2008 9:23 AM

To Mr. Kurtz - you miss my second post where I back away from that one apologize and say I might have come on too strong. Please read my second post.

Also, we don't know what affect discovering who they had attacked had on the perpetrators' willingness to be apologetic in front of the cops.

Finally, you do point out that the perpetrator also suggested Moti initiated something, which I doubt of course is true - that Moti initiated anything.

The only reason I brought any of this up is because of the positions Smuts and Sandman hold, particularly Smuts, who oversees police. I thought it would be good for them to be aware that it can and does go the other way, if certain conditions are there.

I am speculating somewhat based only on what this story reported, but it seemed like it contained enough of a hint of those kinds of conditions to provide an opportunity to point them out to them.

Do readers of the New Haven Indep. really mind my trying to communicate that to a city alderman and Smuts, the guy who runs things? Is it mostly a bad thing or a good thing to try to communicate that?

Do you think they can sort out the info I provide for them on their own, or do they need hostile people fighting their battles for them?

I tried to bring up a subtle point, that's all. Most of the readers who responded read all kinds of things into tht. Can we put this to bed now? Thanks