New Haven Independent

Posted by: What the heck? | November 20, 2008 8:25 AM

I know this plastic surgery idea sounds nutty but the project actually seems to be about building a commercial development whether the plastic surgeon shows up or not.

So the primary Grand Avenue Fair Haven developer (Reyes), the primary Fair Haven business group (GAVA), a Fair Haven architect (Winters), and the alderwoman (Castro) all support this developer.

But an alderman from a completely different part of town raises an absurd position about abutting residential property and the rest of the board goes along with it. The area in question is a complete hodgepodge of commercial and residential and has been for 100 years.

I'm all for intelligent reasonable zoning but this is upper-class silliness. Folks from East Rock where residential is completely separate from commercial run roughshod over the leadership of another neighborhood.

I could see if any neighborhood opposition arose but this is a commercial area, a vacant lot, and a generally crappy corner.

Does anyone really think that Winters and Reyes who both own properties out of which they run their businesses within the two blocks surrounding this property would look to degrade the area? Is GAVA suddenly supporting detrimental development in its zone? This is silliness and city plan should be embarrassed. Are we in a recession -- apparently not in East Rock and Westville (where I gather the votes supporting Mattison and Lamar came from) -- maybe so in Fair Haven, Dixwell, Newhallville and the Hill.

Usually Lamar is a decent and thoughtful guy. But this smacks of arrogance in the extreme. Too long in city hall perchance?

Posted by: norton street | November 20, 2008 8:39 AM

why knock down houses? theres a parking lot directly to the north of all those properties, it appears its owned by a business, so just agree to include some parking spaces for the business and build on the lot thats on grand and ferry.
also, this is very very very silly.

Posted by: The Heights | November 20, 2008 9:53 AM

WHAT THE HECK - You need to get your facts straight - the local developer (Reyes) the local architect (Winters) and the local Alder (Castro all agrred with the elitist and arrogant Lemar (really? - do you even know this guy? arrogant and elitist is about the furthest from the truth...

Do you understand zoning? Look at the map - a very small sliver of the proposal was not recommended - you know, the part with a single-family house on it in a very residential neighborhood. the overwhelming majority of the proposal was approved, but your going to go all crazy, misrepresent what happened, disagree with a "decent and thoughful guy" as you call him and call him "arrogant and elitist" over less than 5% of the project area? Even thought the the "locals" all agreed and said that they could work with the proposal that the the Commission, the zoning director, the planning director and the architect all thought was a good compromise? You need to take your time and try to understand the facts before you speak.

Posted by: anon | November 20, 2008 10:03 AM

There's no need to start knocking down houses and threatening the value of other people's residential properties. You can't run roughshod over the zoning code, at least not without a planning process - it would be a very bad precedent. The developer knew that long before he applied. Also, he should easily be able to accommodate the same program even without having that one house.

Posted by: Ned | November 20, 2008 10:51 AM

I'm seeing a big market for liposuction and hair transplants.

Posted by: Kevin | November 20, 2008 11:03 AM

What the Heck

I don't know whether you were at the meeting, but I was. The idea of excluding the Exchange Street property from the rezoning came from city Plan staff rather than Ald. Lemar.The commissioners asked DeFrutos whether excluding the property would be a deal-breaker and Winters, who was acting as his agent, said no. If that parcel was critical to his project, he should have said so in the meeting, rather than grousing about it afterwards.

BTW you are incorrect in believing that residential and commercial uses are separated in East Rock (my neighborhood). The two major commercial streets (Orange and State) have many buildings that are commercial on the first floor and apartments on the upper floors. On my 600-foot long block, there are professional offices, an electrical contractor, and a restaurant as well as single and multi-family housing.

Posted by: Jonas Maciunas | November 20, 2008 11:36 AM

Maintaining residential continuity is important, without a doubt. I agree with Roland on this. And if De Frutos is for real, this seems like an interesting project.

So, a look at the intersection of Ferry and Exchange will reveal that only one of the four corners actually has a house built on it (and the house on that one corner is on Ferry and set back from Exchange a bit) - the lot in question is vacant and two others are covered in asphalt. There is not much continuity to be interrupted. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I don't just mean that rhetorically), but it doesn't look like demolition would be necessary.

The commission ought to look at updating zoning to allow for commercial uses on each corner lot at that intersection. Not only that, but this rezoning should stipulate that buildings be 2-4 stories and placed right up to the sidewalk. These two changes could create a nice node of activity to terminate Ferry Street commerce south of Grand Ave. Away from the corner, the streets can return to being pleasantly residential areas.

ps. I don't completely agree with Roland's stance here, but can we please refrain from using words like "arrogant" and "elitist" to demonize somebody? Give me a break.

Posted by: Beansie's Mom | November 20, 2008 11:58 AM

Why amazing that this didn't come up in the Mayor's talk last night at Nathan Hale School. It was MAYOR's Night Out and the Ferry Street and Grand Avenue Turnbridge came up but not this. And how can we proceed with this when the previously planned Quin Ave REdo is stalled. This is what happens when Fair Haven is separated. There is fair haven. The Center. The Heights, The Flats, The Foxon Hills region.

If you look at that part of Ferry Street, and Grand Avenue, there's too much traffice. Cars Bicycles and Jay Walking pedistrians.

Conveniently the head of City Plan and the City Engineer aren't at Mayor's night out b/c they are at the City Plan Commission.

The CPC isn't as public as the Board of Zoning appeals. This needs to stop.

If this was such a great plan why wasn't it presented to the community. I know for a fact that it wasn't talked about the the Quinnipiac River Community Group that meets on the second Tuesday of the month on Front Street.

This group formed when the Ferry Street bridge was closed with such little notice. Certainly Mr. Reyes should be familiar with this group.

We have too many non profits in the Center of Fair Haven. With the coming economic downturn, we do need commercial but it needs to be balanced.

Amazing how the favored FH Developer and the former LCI head only reach out to which group?

But the fact is that Ferry Street is going to get bogged down with Traffic with the Q Bridge project flow over especially when the funds are raised to Lift the Turnbridge to take care of that Spider Assembly. Should'nt we figure out how to help the merchants already there and already zoned commercial along East Grand and Front Street.

Just a few thoughts.

Any pennies from any one else. Put in your two cents.

Posted by: Grand | November 20, 2008 1:45 PM

Hey Jonus, I think you are misreading the plans here. The subject parcel under debate is not located on a corner - it is three lots in on Exchange Street and it DOES have a single-family home on it The city plan commission agrees that the cornor lot should be rezoned Lemar/director kilvarg thought the house three lotts in should remain in a residential zone.

Posted by: anon | November 20, 2008 1:52 PM

Anyone want to look at Google Maps on this one? It seems pretty clear that 173 Exchange Street should not be rezoned. I'm sure, from looking at the size of the rezone and the the preliminary discussion of what might happen here, any real plans that the City Planning group were presented would be viewed favorably. But rezoning this parcel without any understanding of how it would be used is just plain wrong. Jonas, maybe they don't teach this at Yale or with Robert Orr, but neighborhoods matter.

Posted by: Jonas Maciunas | November 20, 2008 2:48 PM

Grand, thanks for the correction. I would agree that the house off the corner (lot 173) should not need to be torn down. I don't know much about Regina Winters, but she should be able to creatively site the project without that small parcel.

That said, I still think that, if the one corner lot is changed, it would be best for each of the corner lots be be uniformly zoned so as to maximize their potential commercial value.

Posted by: anon | November 20, 2008 3:25 PM

I agree with Jonas on the uniform zoning issue.

Also, I appreciate that he put in a link to Suburban Nation, a book that I keep within arm's length (literally) at all times not just for its importance, but also for its incredible entertainment value.

Posted by: flk | November 20, 2008 4:03 PM

Has any neighborhood in the u.s. really changed for the better without gentrification?

Posted by: Chuck | November 20, 2008 4:10 PM

New Haven has entrepreneurs that believe in this city. Entrepreneurs that are willing to invest significant money and expend countless hours to bring jobs and opportunity to an area that so desperately needs it. Yet these, so called, Community Revitalization Committees stifle the real growth that we can all benefit from. How many people would be employed at the proposed hospital? Lets look at the construction workers needed to build it, the doctors, nurses and support staff needed to run it, and all the local vendors needed to supply it. Even the rental properties in the immediate area would improve so as to be able to attract the local workers with above average paying jobs. Saying no to these projects, large and small, hurts the working people whose neighborhood they are trying to "protect."
No one suggested taking the single family residence via eminent domain, instead the developer would pay fair market value for the property. If the owner were unwilling to sell, then the deal would be off anyway but the power to decide would be in the hands of the property owner and not left to the wisdom of a board.

Posted by: anon | November 20, 2008 4:49 PM

Hey Chuck - no one said no to anything, so stop your whineing.

FLK - No noe here is talking about gentrification. you need to understand the words you use before you use them

Posted by: Doc | November 20, 2008 7:22 PM

Hard to imagine that rich people will come to a crime-ridden neighborhood for plastic surgery.

Posted by: g | November 21, 2008 9:51 AM

I am glad that the house on Exchange will not be torn down. It's a gem. It makes sense for commercial to mirror commercial - it creates more foot traffic and it becomes a more viable area.
I think that the possibility of creating more jobs would be great - but a monstrosity of a brick building is not.
This is where the community has a chance to speak up. Keep the character of the community a village. This can be accomplished with a good facade design.

Posted by: g | November 21, 2008 1:00 PM

Hey DOC
I live in Fair Haven...do you? It's not what it was ten years ago. It's a beautiful friendly place - and I'm glad my children are growing up somewhere that is a real neighborhood. There are problems now and then, and its usually ppl coming in from outside the neighborhood. I love it here, I'm here to stay.
the Zoning change is not about what is going in there - deFrutos got off topic, the point is that commercial areas should be balanced. there should be commercial in front of commercial it creates more foot traffic and just generally makes more sense. We will see what actually goes in, once its developed... we will need to make sure whatever is developed fits the village look of grand Ave.

Posted by: Alejandro De Frutos | November 21, 2008 2:57 PM

My name is Alejandro De Frutos and i am the developer , first i must say that i appreciate people posting coments on favor of this project , second i want to clarify some facts about this , you must understand that the development of this area is going to be posible as i said at the meeting without the parcel on 173 exchange street but of course will be SMALLER PROJECT and will most likely KILL the idea of the plastic surgery center i dont know if is just me but if some of the people writting coments on this page will read the news papers every day , maybe they find out, that the economy on this country is going down hill , well the reason why i say this is cause , we are talking here about a dream , having some major overseas investor with very deep pockets coming in to our community (wich is not the best one as we all know) to invest MILLIONS of dollars so maybe we should say lets help the economy of fair haven lets all get together and make this dream come true , lets try to make our neighborhood a better place to live , instead of doing that ,we star getting worry of a house that is vacant that some people get into the basement to get the cooper pipes , are you people for real , listen this is a dream that can become a reality , but gets kill by someone that doesnt live on fair haven, this gentlemen provably don't walk on fair haven cause the crime rate ,roberies and all the crazy things that happen there keep him away but he have the power of shuting down the project that will make of this community something diferent and takes away this one in a million chances for this part of the city to become a better place , i am sure where he live commercial and residential are apart but this is not WESTVILLE , this is FAIR HAVEN , you MUST UNDERSTAND that 100 years will past before someone try to do something like this in this neighborhood , but you can be proud that thanks to your actions FAIR HAVEN will NOT have that chance to be a better place GOOD JOB , well done i hope you MISTER are proud of such a good work. Me in particular make no diference ,cause yes, i can still develope this parcel ,as i was ask that night, but as i also answer, is going to be smaller so will go from state of the art plastic surgery center into some chinese restaurant or nail salon , WHAT A JOKE !!!!
i think narrow minded people should NOT have the power to make community changing decisions , cause we are at risk of becoming narrow minded people too.
The funny think about this whole situation is that this parcel at 173 exchange street is for sale and that no one on his right mind will buy this house in the condition that it is , specially in the area of the city that it is , how ever if it was in westville i am sure someone will make an offer but again this is not westville , just as i final thought i want to say that if this hospital was ever build , the price on real estate in Fair Haven will go up , but unfortunatly is NOT going to happen we will NOT have 300 new well paid jobs created , with 30 or 40 prominent plastic surgery doctors coming in to work into fair haven , every day , we will not have state of the art facility provably the only one of its kind on the east cost , we will also not have , 300 people going out for breakfast , lunch and posibly dinner 5 days a week ,we will also not have this people going across the street to c-town and other business inthe area to spend money , we are not going to have all this cause it is more important for the comunity having this falling apart house on 173 exchange , but the irony here is that someone that doesn't even live on the comunity is the one that STEAL this dream of the comunity , totally SURREAL .

Posted by: anon | November 21, 2008 4:42 PM

Wow. reading the comments by Mr.De Frutos makes me certain that the City Plan Commission did the right thiihng. If not changing the zoning of that small parcel "kill the whole project" then he must be an awful developer who doesn't understand how the zoning process works. He got the zone chage he wanted, if he had a real project , all he had to do was come back for zoning relief on the small property he needed to get the deal done. But since this project was never possibel (ony a pipe dream) he gets to try to blam ethe City Plan Commission for this. Nevermind the fact that his own agent and alderwoman said the deal was possible as constructed with the approvals he got. This guy is a liar and shouldn't be trusted

Posted by: Josh Smith | November 21, 2008 5:14 PM

What really should happen is that every community should become mixed-use, with three- to four-story buildings. Commercial on the bottom, residential on top. Industrial should still be in other areas, as it kills quality of life near the other two. Fair Haven has a perfect street grid pattern for mixed-use development, but until everyone wakes up from their dreams that "commercial should always be separate from residential", we'll always be forced to drive to where we shop. That goes for every neighborhood. How about making our streets walkable and "bikeable"? How about developing efficient, frequent rail transit between communities? You know what? Maybe we SHOULD bail out the auto industry, but by these rules -- you will no longer build gasoline-fueled cars. As long as the government's keeping you afloat, you'll build only mass transit, bicycles, and clean-fuel cars, and if your companies can't survive that way, then that's unfortunate. It's time for a lifestyle change in America. One that moves heavily towards mass transit in and between all towns and cities. Sorry to get off-topic, but it's really all related to how we're going to build healthy, sustainable communities.

Posted by: Alejandro De Frutos | November 21, 2008 7:34 PM

Well my name is Alejandro De Frutos and i am the developer this message is just a short answer to someone posting coments on this page that use the name "anon" , well mister Anon as you provably notice i have the cortesy to share with all the readers my identity cause i got nothing to hide how ever some one like you that does NOT use the same cortesy given ,show some short of disrespect , now when you enter on personal attacks calling me "liar" i see you probably dont have the type of education that you was supose to have to be at the level where i will entretain your conversation, how ever understanding that not all in live have the same luck or priviledge to receive a good education ,i will make an exception with you and respond to your personal attack , i have no problem with you oposing to my project and i will have no problem looking at your personal point of view , how ever as a sign of cortesy i will ask you for your e-mail adress so i can send you a copy of the proposal from this company overseas that want to put this hospital up and runing , and then when you read it maybe you can post another comment apologicing for your total ignorance and quick thinking without knowing the facts , and when you do that maybe we can seat together and have a good normal discusion without falling in the old ways people use to debate 1000 years ago calling each other names.
Thank you Mr Anon for your time.

Posted by: You're disgusting | November 22, 2008 12:43 PM

Fedupwithliberals -- you are a disgusting bigot.

Your meaning is clear. Transplant our community to Tijuana?

How about we send you to Alabama circa 1952 where you can join fellow bigots making disgusting statements about other people and the places we call home?

Your comments are generally borderline hateful and almost always plain old stupid conservative talking points gleaned from Fox News but now you have crossed the line.

Here's a simple suggestion -- shut up. No one should have to hear your dark hateful insides spilled out through the pretense of humor.

Just go away. There is no need for anyone to constantly hear your disgust with all of us and this town we call home. Just go away.

In the meantime, maybe the publishers of this paper could take your most recent bigoted comments out of the comments section. Hey maybe they should just ban you forever saving the time of having to figure out when you are going to yet again slip into insulting whole ethnic groups.

God you're funny -- in that sick, "hurry children, cross the street and run away from the strange man kind of way."

Posted by: Joe | November 22, 2008 8:28 PM

Mr. De Frutos -

Here's a basic rule of thumb: Don't post longwinded, angry, rants on the NH Independent comments page!

You're still at the earliest of phases in your project, and you have virtually nothing to gain from venting your frustrations publicly, but you have everything to lose. No one is going to take you MORE seriously because of your post--rather, it only serves to undermine whatever negotiations you hope to engage in going forward. Remember, trust is a key component of negotiations, and your key constituency--the people you need to convince and bring to your side--will be less willing to trust someone who goes off his wire at every turn. If you want to be taken seriously, maintain professional standards at all times!

Posted by: Chuck | November 23, 2008 11:58 PM

You just did the same thing to conservatives that Fedupwithliberals did to Latins. I just figured that I'd point that out.

Posted by: Fairhaven Dave | November 24, 2008 1:55 AM

Maybe they didn't approve the zoning change because Frutos idea sounds more like a reality TV concept than a viable business plan?

Posted by: Fedupwithliberals | November 24, 2008 5:44 PM

YOU'RE DISGUSTING

In the spirit of the new Obama administration, comrade MacMillian is caving to your self righteous indignation and censoring my comments.

Just had to say how selective and intellectually dishonest you liberals are about phony outrage on offending people. It's okay for NED to make snarky comments and swipes at obese or follicle challenged individuals. No political damage there, just a direct unsolicited ad hominem attack on a real person. Don't know if Ned would like people making short jokes about him next time his picture pops up at a gay rally. Comment about the sad state of our culture with compromised borders, language and culture, and the intelligentsia go apoplectic!

Give me a break!

Posted by: My opinion | November 24, 2008 8:49 PM

All I can think of when I read about this project is: Lithium, STAT.