New Haven Independent

Posted by: D | December 12, 2008 5:26 PM

Since we're now ticketing people while they're at church, I look forward to seeing tickets on all the cars parked in the far left lane of Temple Street on the Green (totally blocking a driving/turn only lane) whenever one of the three churches on the Green has a service.

Or might it be that New Haven only tickets the people with brown skin? I fear I know the answer.

Posted by: City Hall Watch | December 12, 2008 5:42 PM

Is there any law Father Manship thinks his parishoners should obey? He doesn't believe in immigration laws and now he thinks his parishoners deserve a warning for doubleparking????? I've never double parked in my entire life. Aside from it being rude to others, it's illegal. Who cares if poor people are getting tickets? I would think if money is tight, one may want to obey the rules so as not to waste it. But then again, I guess the rules are for other people, just not Manship's. Watch and see if the mayor wipes out all those tickets.

Posted by: dwightstreetrenter | December 12, 2008 8:23 PM

if you break the law, you should expect consequences. New Haven's city budget is in deficit, and tickets generate revenue. No one is above the law; pay your fine and learn the law!

if you double-park, even if you're worshipping, you'll be fined.

comparing tickets issued for double parking to police response to shootings is ridiculous. "no warning" of tickets? if you knew it was wrong, you should have expected to have gotten "caught" at some point.

Posted by: JackNH | December 12, 2008 11:10 PM

I agree. There are ticketing sweeps all the time in New Haven. Such as around Yale on Commencement Day. Pay your fine and don't park illegally again. It's not hard to find legal parking in Fair Haven at 11 pm . . .I know because I live in the neighborhood.

Posted by: kamb | December 12, 2008 11:15 PM

This guy is off his rocker. Most of the cops that work Fair Haven are latino so there is no issue here.

And Manship said we always park like this. Well stop. Double parking is illegal. If I park like that on Church St or Whalley, I would get a ticket. Should people be allowed to double park in front of a church? Is it any different? NO! You get no special privilages Manship!

He is more worried about church membership and DUES $$$$ going down. Thelast time a NHPD official tried to bend the law for a man of the cloth (also in Fair Haven with the noise complaint) the city shelled out 1.5 million in a law suit. NO special treatment for you either Manship!

Practice your religion and OBEY the law.

Posted by: Ellis Copleland | December 13, 2008 5:25 AM

Yet another example of how NHPD is a useless waste. Anyone with half a brain would realize that fostering good relations with the neigborhood clergy is a main path to keeping an area peaceful. As to the attitude, "the law's the law, blah. blah, blah," a simple reminder to the people would have been more than sufficient and just. The idea that the cops should throw around tickets because the city needs money is as ridiculous as it is offensive. Maybe the cash starved city should cut back on the godawful cop overtime. Or maybe the cops should ticket themselves for parking on Union Ave. without paying the meters.

Posted by: Fedupwithliberals | December 13, 2008 5:59 AM

"Manship said he recognizes that double-parking is a violation: "Yeah, they're breaking the law," he said, "but there's a proportionality" -- far worse crimes are going unaddressed, he argued."

You're right, Father. Like illegal immigration and identity theft! Those are federal crimes which are broken on a daily basis with your help. As far as this whole ticket thing is concerned, remember what the good book says.."render unto Caeser what is Caeser's". I believe that John DesStefano is that modern day Italian dictator, and if your parishioners want to become part of the community, they can start by paying their taxes and parking tickets. Helps to fund things like Illegal ID programs, bilingual education, section 8 housing and welfare.

Posted by: ned | December 13, 2008 10:14 AM

Maybe they can ask the rabid homophobes, at the Knights of Columbus, to pay the parking tickets? After all, if the Catholic church can scrounge up enough money from suckers to pay for all of the child rape settlements, and spend a few million bucks to screw people out of their rights, surely their big mean sky god can pay a few parking tickets? I suppose "thou shalt not park" isn't one of god's commandments? Pay back is a bitch, Mary!

Posted by: Walt | December 13, 2008 10:48 AM

...

How about considering his law - abiding parishioneers. locked in by the stupid double parkers?

How about all his parishioners' safety being threatened by double parkers blocking access by the fire dept or other emergency services?

Posted by: Walt | December 13, 2008 11:33 AM

---- and for next year, try to get permission for diagonal parking in the middle of the street (plenty of room as Blatchley near St. Rose's is as wide as Whalley)

Supervised by hired off-duty cops or parish volunteers if permitted.

No more double-parking

Posted by: Walt | December 13, 2008 1:45 PM

My error,

On re-reading I realize that I did not agree with the bigot, Ned.

What a relief!

Do agree with most of the other posters, that Father Manship needs re-training re secular laws that he should encourage his flock to obey,

Posted by: citysavior | December 13, 2008 3:05 PM

wow paul your letting this posting get out of hand. Don't forget the last time clergy in fair haven asked cops to turn their back on the law, it cost the city millions. Have the church pay the tickets and buy property so the parishioners has some where to park.

Posted by: unprotected | December 13, 2008 6:45 PM

ellis copeland, please... next time you call the police, give them your name, and remind them you said they are worthless. a cop got hurt last night, trying to stop gunfire in as neighborhood he doesn't live in, between people he doesn't know, and protecting citizens that don't care for police. last time i checked, that was called being a HERO.

Posted by: Fair Haven Guy | December 13, 2008 7:03 PM

This was silly by the cops. People double park at church services at this church and have for decades without tickets.

If the police wanted to end this, a simple notice saying, hey we aren't going to tolerate this any more might have been nice.

But more importantly this was just a mistake on the cops' part. It would not have happened on Sunday morning and it would not have happened on the day shift. Almost certainly what happened is that with the night shift, there was someone new who had no idea that there was even a church service going on.

There is absolutely no problem with people double parking here. You could triple park and still have plenty of driving space. The road is massive yet is only one lane in either direction. (It could support 3 lanes in front of the church.)

There is not sufficient parking for this church or for Second Star of Jacob around the corner. So lots of creative solutions are found.

And for those who don't live in the neighborhood, let me suggest a few things. First, parking at night several blocks away on a side street might not be a comfortable solution for a lot of folks. Second, for those of us who live on side streets, we prefer double parking on Blatchley to taking up all the spaces in front of our houses, Third, the church has been there for a very long time (long before Marty Looney was baptized there for instance), so don't say something silly about the church not being accommodating to the surrounding area.

Maybe our chief needs to rein in the parking crew a bit. Reason is often a useful tool in a cop's arsenal. I gotta believe there were a few other calls in Fair Haven at the time.

Posted by: Tough Love | December 13, 2008 9:04 PM

What Father Manship does not mention is: not only were his parishioners double-parked that night, they were triple-parked on a rainy night. In addition, approximately 10 highly intoxicated parishioners spilled out of the church and into the street in a street fight. Does this sound like normal church activity? Also, if you were to drive there when these cars are double-parked, you'd observe at least one-third having out of state plates. I doubt they're visiting. How much does he want the police to ignore?

Posted by: Beansie's Mom | December 13, 2008 10:22 PM

St. Rose of Lima should make arrangements to have staging areas for the parking.

There are only two Catholic parishes left in Fair Haven. Surely arrangements could have been made to have people park in other lots. They could car pool.

GOD determines the weather. Parking that night was a serious safety hazard and deserved to be addressed by the NHPD.

When my family came to this country in the late 1950s, you had to walk or take the bus until you had a valid license.

Lest we forget, December 11th was a terrible stormy night. We were fortunate in New Haven to only have rain. But there was way too much. And people were coming from all over. Not all Hispanics worship at Sr. Rose of Lima. Sacred Heart Church in the Hill section is struggling to stay afloat.

Blatchley is a main street. People need to get to Chapel Street to go over a bridge to get to down town or the Hospitals.

I walked in the pouring rain on Thursday night. I was parked in a legal fashion. Of course, when the car is unregistered, uninsured and no one in the family has a valid license, you can't just pay the ticket to get it back.

As for NED's comments. Most priests were not involved in the sexual scandal. I have no DOUBT that some were. But in today's world, I'm more concerned about the bleeding heart liberals that keep making excuses. I'm not worried about my daughters inside a church. I'm worried about the sex offenders who are released, get the little blue pill and are out roaming around.

It's amazing how many people feel they can dicatate what the Catholic church and it's fraternal organizations should do.

But people, party now and pay later isn't the best plan. When your time comes, you want to end up with the sheep not the goats.

Posted by: ned | December 13, 2008 11:15 PM

Walt:
"Be not angry that you cannot make others as you wish them to be, since you cannot make yourself as you wish to be." Thomas a Kempis

And, don't double park.

Posted by: Walt | December 14, 2008 11:15 AM

Beansie's Mom has a good idea, second only to my own..

Run a shuttle from St. Francis and the grocery at Grand and Ferry, lots which certainly are vacant (at least from legitimate parkers) at 11PM any night.

Ask for donations toward expense from shuttle users.

Post disclaimers re damages or injuries

Make sure to carry adequate insurance so St Rose's or the other entities, do not suffer.

Posted by: Get Real | December 14, 2008 12:30 PM

Overtime before Xmas. The Festival of Cavallere.

Posted by: Damn Mad | December 14, 2008 8:47 PM

Perhaps the priest might be watching CNN about what happened to some immigrants when they left a church in New York? (See article below)

Do parking violations have the same importance or more than stopping crime like muggings, beatings, and shootings? How about sitting in front of a couple of drug houses to do reports, at least, to disturb their business for abit.

I for one would like to see a better use of police than ticketing cars at midnight. Maybe they could go after the addicts parking on my street to buy drugs from the 24-7 operation on my steet. Why should I be made to feel unsafe when I come home at night? THE SAME NIGHT CARS WHEN THESE CARS WERE BEING TICKETED!

Whatever you feel about immigrants, I live in this city too, and want to be safe.

HEADLINE CNN>
New York immigrant dead in apparent hate crime

Immigrant dies from injuries sustained in possible bias attack

Jose Sucuzhanay, brother assaulted by group of men after leaving party

Group allegedly yelled anti-gay, anti-Latino vulgarities at men

Mother learned of son's death shortly after arriving from Ecuador

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A 31-year-old Ecuadorean man who was beaten last Sunday in what New York City authorities say may have been a hate crime has died at a Queens hospital, his brother said Saturday.

Jose Sucuzhanay was beaten after leaving a party at a Catholic church.

Jose Sucuzhanay and his brother, Romel, had left a party on December 7 at St. Brigid's Roman Catholic Church when several men approached them in a car in the Bushwick section of Brooklyn, police said. The men allegedly began shouting anti-gay and anti-Latino vulgarities at the two men.

Jose Sucuzhanay suffered severe head trauma and was taken to Elmhurst Hospital. He died Friday night from his injuries.

Romel Sucuzhanay, 38, escaped with minor scrapes and has talked with detectives on the case.

City Council Speaker Christine Quinn said she was "horrified to learn that anti-LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual) and anti-Latino slurs were used by one or more of the assailants, raising this event to the level of a hate crime." Watch how attack has outraged the Latino community »

Quinn said she was in touch with the NYPD's Hate Crimes Task Force. According to police, however, the attack has not been categorized as a hate crime.

"This is a wake-up call and shows how far we still must come to address the devastating problem of hate crimes in our communities," said Diego Sucuzhanay, Jose's brother, in a written statement. "Only by exposing these crimes and working together will we be able to make a difference."

No arrests have been made in the case. Police are offering a $22,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone involved in the attack.

Sucuzhanay's mother arrived Saturday in New York from the family's home outside Quito, Ecuador, only to learn that he son had died, said family spokesman Francisco Moya.

He said the victim had lived in the United States for more than a decade and was a legal resident, working as a real estate broker.

A news conference is expected to be held Sunday afternoon.

Posted by: carlene | December 15, 2008 8:26 AM

What would happen if people double park at St.Francis on Ferry St.....Father Manship you may be a priest but you are wrong...bad enough you harbor the illegals you and the Mayor....i give credit to Chief Lewis for enforcing the laws we have...there is plenty of room on Blatchey Ave. and around the corner there is no need for double parking...Father Manship you want people to follow the bible but not LAWS...shame on you..church and politics are supposed to be seperated..

Posted by: David Streever | December 15, 2008 9:16 AM

Do we really need to bring up the undocumented here?

Is it a priest's responsibility to verify the immigration status of his parishoners?

Yes, clearly, they deserved their tickets. Options for going to this though don't need to be "buy a parking lot": conceivably people can walk to their churches (yes, even at night, in groups), rent a bus/shuttle, or car pool.

Who cares if some of the parishoners were undocumented or not? Do you people get this upset about middle class americans who illegally park at the other churches?

Posted by: Walt | December 15, 2008 9:54 AM

Streever

Never saw double parking elsewhere

Real mess near the synagogue on Ridge Road, Hamden during Jewish holidays, with cars parked on other people lawns but nothing dangerous.

Many residents put good sized rocks along the edge of the road just before the holidays to keep cars off of their property, and cops (paid by the synagogue?) control some parkers and keep traffic moving without really undue delay,

Human nature being what it is, the only properties not endangered by parkers is that owned by the synagogue itself (on which no one ever seems to park.

Basicly not unsafe like St Rose's area, just a little irksome (for me, as I do not live on Ridge) a couple of times a year.

Posted by: City Hall Watch | December 15, 2008 10:22 AM

Streever:

The illegal immigrant issue is not the problem here. It's the elitist, above the law mentality that Father Manship exhibits that is the real problem. It certainly appears he is against the enforcement of any law that affects his parishoners, documented or not. He thinks parishoners should be able to double park on a city street; that immigration laws should not be enforced; that police should not ask suspects their immigration status; that police should not assist other law enforcement agencies who do; he believes it's just fine to publicize extreme allegations against a business with fairly skimpy evidence of wrongdoing; and he believes its fine to use a few terribly egregious cases of violence against the undocumented, in order to foist the city ID card on all taxpayers, in fact, making New Haven a sanctuary city.

What you are seeing in the comments here, is that people are pushing back against Father Manship who somehow finds a problem wherever he looks and turns it into an attack on his church and his parishoners. The problem is, it's just not true.

And by the way, I attend two different churches. Attendees at both churches don't double park, park illegally or block driveways of nearby residents.

Posted by: anon | December 15, 2008 11:13 AM

What about ticketing all the double-parked police cruisers on the side street off of union ave. next to the PD headquarters?

they'd ticket god almighty for assuming precedence over police.

Posted by: robn | December 15, 2008 1:17 PM

Blatchley is 60 feet wide, about 10 feet wider than Whitney Avenue, which is pretty damn wide. Also, this ticketing was done after midnight which is pretty late. I'm usually a stickler for enforcement if there is a god safety reason but this doesn't sound like much of an issue; rather the motivation seems to be revenue. I agree with D that, given church parking on Temple street on Sunday, there appears to be a double standard.

Posted by: Bob | December 15, 2008 1:28 PM

What about ticketing all the double-parked police cruisers on the side street off of union ave. next to the PD headquarters?

Great idea, ticket city vehicles so the.... city....can pay for it. BRILLIANT!!

Posted by: citizen | December 15, 2008 1:53 PM

D Stop with the racial comments ?

Posted by: St Rose Parishioner | December 15, 2008 2:31 PM

Calm down, people. Somehow this problem about parking has gotten much bigger than it needs to be. St. Rose does not have a parking lot, and we have been double-parking during services for all of the 25 years I've been a parishioner. Past chiefs and substation leadership have worked with us to deal with the needs of the parish, which has always been a vital spiritual and cultural home for its people. Other urban faith communities have similar issues with parking, and it would be wise to work out solutions instead of attacking the pastor and our parishioners.

Posted by: Ned | December 15, 2008 2:52 PM

"given church parking on Temple street on Sunday, there appears to be a double standard." Absolutely. Why should certain people be favored, or receive special rights, from the government, because of their particular superstition? It's bad enough that tax money is going to "faith based" businesses. Would a group of Atheists be allowed to double park?, how about the Church of Jesus Christ Christian/Aryan Nations?, the Westboro Baptist Church?

Thomas Jefferson had it right, when he emphasized the danger of the government favoring any religion.

Posted by: Streever | December 15, 2008 3:06 PM

I'm sorry you think I'm making "racial" comments Citizen, but I just wonder why so many people are posting about undocumented citizens when the issue is totally unrelated. I think I can question that, right, or do you have the authority to issue a stop command to me?

It's interesting that you take me to task for questioning why FedUp & Carlene want to relate this to the issue of undocumented immigration. Why can't I question them on this? Does it offend you?

City Hall Watch:
I agree completely. Undocumented immigrants is not an issue here. Just asking why others seek to make it one.

Robn,
exactly, I'm thinking of that exact scenario. I see no one targetting the church parking on Temple on Sundays. Thanks!

I just want to stress I'm not suggesting the POLICE are ticketing because of the possibility of undocumented attendance at the church: but am questioning why other COMMENTATORS feel the need to make that an issue in this story.

Posted by: Hood Rebel | December 15, 2008 6:05 PM

Enough already!
The nominees for best whiners are: East Rockers and St. Rose...
http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2008/11/nonotice_tows_r.php

Whew!

Posted by: The Defender | December 15, 2008 9:51 PM

Damn if you do, and damn if you don't, that is the constant paradox that police officers are confronted with every day of their professional lives.

Let us look at a hypothetical situation dealing with the inappropriately parked vehicles. Pretend for one moment that this article was not about the few tickets issued to the divergently parked vehicles but about a motorist who collided and died as a result of the obstructions on the roadway.

The follow-up story the NHI would be writing about wouldn't list Father Manship's thoughts or concerns on how the NHPD treats his parishioners but instead about the overwhelming cries from the family of the decease blaming sworn members of NHPD for neglecting their duties.

One important fact that was not emphasized enough in the story is the ten intoxicated parishioners exiting the church and then becoming entangled in a breach in the early morning hours in front of the church surrounded by privately owned homes. What exactly is Father Manship providing, is it a God like sermon or a party that condones the excessive use of alcohol, public intoxication and public unruly behavior in the middle of the night in an already emotionally inflamed neighborhood.

Posted by: che15 | December 16, 2008 3:30 AM

Defender, AMEN.
Funny how reporters only write half the story.

Posted by: Neighbor | December 16, 2008 11:11 AM

We were there for the Mass and the gathering afterward, there was no alcohol served.

Why did not those people causing problems and disturbing the peace arrested? How is giving parking tickets a response to what some are saying was a street fight?

I think the officers of the NHPD do a great job. I think St Rose does a good job too in our neighborhood.

But there is always room for improvement on both sides.

Posted by: The Defender | December 16, 2008 1:18 PM

Dear neighbor;

In response to your question,

"How is giving parking tickets a response to what some are saying was a street fight?"

The officer exercised commonsense, by issuing the few parking tickets the officer managed to disrupt the impending violence.

Posted by: l | December 18, 2008 10:52 AM

Um, it is always a mess to drive anywhere near there when church is in session - cars are parked all over the place, creating many blind spots. I am glad they got tickets. The church needs an ample parking lot, or, god forbid, some people in their big SUV's have to park and WALK a few blocks. Lazy. I think it was right to ticket them. While we're at it, how about the double parking on Chapel when there is a sporting event at the park down the street? I love how people scream racism! or say it's about immigration - people need to respect one another and the law of the place they choose to live. remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf.