New Haven Independent

Posted by: Bill | December 22, 2008 3:15 PM

Super idea! It should also include all the mob killings. And how about the victims of serial killers Dahmer and Gacy.

Geez. Another case of Rome burning while the city officials are playing the fiddle.

Posted by: jay | December 22, 2008 3:19 PM

okay, first, someone needs to tell Alderman Shah that there is a budget crisis going on in the City and that this is probably not the right time to propose spending money on a monument when we can't even fund the homeless shelter. second, let's envision a monument on the Green with all the names of people who died in senseless gun violence -- yep, this will certainly be a draw for people to come to New Haven - yep, that's definitely the image we should be sending to visitors. NOT!

Posted by: City Hall Watch | December 22, 2008 3:55 PM

Shah's idea is laudable and partially right - but victims, not perps deserve to be remembered. The problem is sometimes, the victims, were also perps which is why they got whacked by a competitor. How do you distinguish?

With all the dead, dying and mayhem in New Haven, it's important to remember it could be a lot worse. I've lived in cities and traveled neighborhoods far worse than anything I've seen in Fairhaven, Newhallville or the Hill. On the other hand, it could be a lot better given the attention, time and money - all with what sure seems like little demonstrable results.

At some point, are these violence abatement programs working? Should they be funded? Are they actually doing any good? If so, as compared to what? As compared to what time frame? Is violence down this year over last? Fewer gun incidents? Fewer deaths?

And how do you drive home the idea that young lives are important, that they have meaning, that they or other, perhaps older people can easily become a victim with a tombstone?

Perhaps a better location might be the Peace Park that fronts on the Boulevard. Most people don't even know it exists. Maybe it should travel - from troubled neighborhood to neighborhood as a stark reminder of what we have lost and what lack of leadership at home and in government has wrought.

Posted by: greg | December 22, 2008 5:33 PM

"Our children are no longer expendable."

Since when?

Posted by: Disgusting | December 22, 2008 7:09 PM

This is an absolutely ridiculous idea.

Alderman Shah, it seems that yours and other's inability as community leaders to hold youths accountable has left only the bullets to hold them accountable.

If you believe that your neighborhood is a battlefield than you should place the memorial there.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | December 22, 2008 7:30 PM

hmmm Shah noble idea. But dude, it is budget time, in the middle of a finical crisis, in the city that spends more than they have and this is what you have to offer as an alderman??? Come on dude!

Posted by: James | December 22, 2008 8:33 PM

We need...an active, consistent and constant reminder that our community has a lot of work to do."

Personally I find the report of gunfire as I try to sleep, my stolen yard equipment, and the daily report of muggings, assault, and murder a pretty constant reminder. And it's free!

Posted by: Streever | December 23, 2008 8:49 AM

Is that an effective reminder, James?

I think the thinking behind this is great: albeit a little misguided. Let's make a monument to someone who has done some good on this problem, so we can celebrate the actual work being done? Instead of the victims, who may deserve such a monument, but I do agree it sends a different message.

I think it'd be fine to build such a monument when we've fixed this problem, but it feels like a defeated message otherwise.

They built the Vietnam war memorial after the war was over.

As the alder points out, this is far from over, & we all have a lot of work to build our community.

Posted by: Alderman Shah | December 23, 2008 9:26 AM

To all who have given comment on this matter, it is my hope that you join me at the committee level to discuss the details of this idea. Of course there will not be a cost to the tax payers. I will find donors to make this happen. Please make time to talk with me face to face on this matter. Any and all suggestions and further comments are welcome.

Posted by: James | December 23, 2008 10:27 AM

Yes, Streever, it's very effective.

Posted by: Ben | December 23, 2008 2:07 PM

I will pay to see this not happen.

Posted by: Streever | December 24, 2008 5:07 PM

James,

but does it inspire you to do that work,
or to hate the city?

that's what I'm asking.

I'm not trying to call you out! Sorry if it feels that way. I'm honestly curious if the gunshots/etc make you do something meaningful for the community or if they just keep you locked away.

Posted by: anna | December 26, 2008 10:29 AM

While well intentioned, I do not think this is a good idea for the reasons mentioned about as well as this can be viewed as a sort of glamorizing the victims (ala RIP t-shirts with pics of victims). Why not lavish some of this attention on the living so youth don't have to be dead to be acknowledged?

Posted by: Edward_H | December 26, 2008 4:55 PM

Why hasn't anyone suggested a memorial for those killed in traffic accidents?

Posted by: jack | December 26, 2008 9:31 PM

how about the taking the murdering thugs off the streets of New Haven, and build a memorial to the hero's that do it

Posted by: robn | December 27, 2008 9:14 AM

"Shah, who was not present at the City Plan meeting, responded in a subsequent phone conversation. He said that he does not make a distinction between victims and perpetrators of gun violence when it comes to a monument." Thomas MacMillan

HUHHH!

So Alderman Shah had a chance to clarify his position and that position is to raise a monument which is 50% dedicated to murderers?

Just checking... but is there any formal procedure for censure in the BOA ??? If so, wouldn't this be a fine time to employ it?

Posted by: Alderman Shah | December 29, 2008 11:53 AM

I love the debate!!! It what people really think about children when they become a part of unfortunate circumstances.

I have a format to educate any nay Sayers about the truth.
That the community has not addressed this issue and that for some reason or another that some of you believe these children deserved to die because they got into trouble and therefore their lives have no meaning and no need to be acknowledged. Remember we are talking about children!!

"Just checking... but is there any formal procedure for censure in the BOA ??? If so, wouldn't this be a fine time to employ it?"

Just in case you forgot, debate is what makes our country the best in the world.
Come out to the committee meeting and voice your opinion. That is your formal procedure. Testify.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | December 29, 2008 12:27 PM

"Just checking... but is there any formal procedure for censure in the BOA ??? If so, wouldn't this be a fine time to employ it?"

It is called voting. 10 months from now is the City elections. Mayor and Alderman. Problem is lack of people willing to run. No anyone? or even you your self can run. Other wise we really can not complain, sadly.

Shah, I totally get what you are looking to do with this. But it will have the opposite effect you are looking for (at least in my opinion) Kids like the 13 year old near humphry's and others like her do deserve to be remembered. I honestly think that a tree in the spot that the child that was killed and a plague is a more personal and is less controversial.

As stated above to do a memorial on the green is a great idea, but only when the killing is over. We do not want it to turn into a badge of honor for gang bangers to make it to the monument.

Posted by: Alderman Shah | December 29, 2008 12:52 PM

Cedarhill:
I agree with you and we don't want this to be a glorification piece for the gangbangers. I just want to be fair and we can discuss who is eligible for the monument and who is not.
I have received much feedback on this matter and there was a suggestion that we make a quilt and roll out the squares on the green annually.

Martin Luther King Jr. stated the measure of a man is not where he stands in comfort and convince. It is where he stands in controversy.
We as a community must address this loss of our children and the answer is not at One Union Ave. The solution is with in the community.

Posted by: robn | December 29, 2008 12:59 PM

Alderman Shah,

I don't belive that anybody deserves to die and thats not what I wrote. You've proposed a memeorial which is 50% dedicated to people whove made a choice to murder. You ought to be embarrassed...if you're not, I'm embarrassed for you.

Posted by: Alderman Shah | December 29, 2008 2:49 PM

Robin:
None of the research that I have done for the past 8 months shows that 50% of the youth in violent deaths in New Haven have made the choice to murder. Where are you getting your numbers from?
I hope that your information is not based in bias stereotypes of youth in New Haven. I have nothing to be embarrassed about. I simply care about the future of New Haven's youth and how we remember those who have fallen in environments that we all should be embarrassed to know exist in this city. What is your solution and or suggestion?

Posted by: robn | December 29, 2008 5:12 PM

Alderman Shah,

My numbers are coming from basic mathematics and logic. I'll explain by starting at the beginning.

Your answer to the NHI reporter's question pertaining to whether you make a distinction between victims and perpetrators of gun violence when it comes to a monument was "all of these young people should be remembered...Nobody is perfect... They may not have felt that they had any other choice."

So in principle, you are proposing a monument to all those involved in gun violence including both the perpetrators and those who have died at the hands of those perpetrators.

1 murderer + 1 victim = 2 people
(in this case I define murderer as somebody who chooses to point a gun at another person and to shoot them and kill them)
1 murderer = 50% of 2 people

Get it?

Posted by: jay | December 29, 2008 5:45 PM

okay, Alderman Shah, let me just say one thing. We all make choices, some times they are good choices and other times they are no so good choices, but there is always a choice. If there weren't a choice, then we would not be human.

Posted by: Alderman Shah | December 29, 2008 10:11 PM

Robin:
Your math is off because every one who is shot may not die because of their wounds, and again we can dertemine who is eligible and who is not depending on their personal circumstances.

For people who don't want to see this done there will always be a "simple" answer of why we don't do this.

I'm waiting to hear your solution. Got one????

Posted by: robn | December 30, 2008 8:55 AM

Alderman Shah,

My immediate solution is to take your poorly concieved and demagogic proposal with a grain of salt. Raising a monument (which is, by your own words, partially dedicated to shooters) is just politically convenient and a lot easier than dealing with the complitites of real-world solutions...like reducing the number of guns on the streets, getting drugs off the streets, adequately policing those streets, ending no-snitch culture, ending the culture of martyrdom and embracing a culture of life, educating children so that they don't end up on those streets, and educating their parents to keep their kids in school with mentoring and discipline.

Posted by: Alderman Shah | December 30, 2008 9:54 AM

Robin:

I will take your feedback and suggestions under strong advisement.

Posted by: Edward_H | December 30, 2008 3:56 PM

I would like to know why the victims of stabbing crimes are being discriminated against. Are their lives not worthy of memorial?

Posted by: Carole | December 30, 2008 5:26 PM

Alderman Shah,

Thank you for responding to the comments and criticisms posted here.

To clarify your exchange with ROBN: You're not really proposing a memorial to those who did the shooting, are you? As I understand your comments, you are saying that you would memorialize all of those who were shot to death -- even if they themselves had histories of gun violence.

I agree with you that it's important to understand and sympathize with kids growing up in these terrible circumstances -- and, even more, to help change those circumstances. But I strongly disagree with your suggestion that we should not judge their actions. We don't do young people any favors by excusing their violent or otherwise antisocial behavior. And it dishonors all those who face the same disadvantages and yet choose to do the right thing.

I also worry that a memorial would glorify the gangbangers, as you put it. That should be a serious consideration as we discuss how best to address this crisis for our young people. That's a critical question for our whole community, and I thank you for raising it -- even though I disagree with some of your perspective.

Posted by: Alderman Shah | December 30, 2008 7:07 PM

Carol:
You are correct and I understand your opinion and will be taking your comments under strong advisement as I did with Robin. I am in the process of documenting my presentation to the board and all of these comments have made me see more in the issue than I originally did. Thanks but I must ask what would be your solution please.

Posted by: robn | December 30, 2008 9:49 PM

Carole,

Its pretty magnanimus of you to let Alderman Shah off the hook but, unless he was misquoted, your interpretation is kind-of an imaginative stretch...

"All of these young people should be remembered. Nobody is perfect. They may not have felt that they had any other choice."
Alderman Shah

Since most people don't make a choice to get shot, he must have been referring to people who made a choice to be the shooters...and is lumping them in with those to be memorialized.

"Let's not be judgmental of the perpetrators. Nobody has any right to judge why somebody did something unless you're standing in their shoes."
Alderman Shah

Alderman Shah is clearly defending the shooters...and is lumping them in with those to be memorialized.

This is an appallingly innapropriate idea.

Posted by: Deuce Frehley | December 31, 2008 11:45 AM

"Let's not be judgmental of the perpetrators. Nobody has any right to judge why somebody did something unless you're standing in their shoes."
Alderman Shah

Gee, should we no longer arrest murderers and put them in jail? After all, enforcing the law requires judgement. What's next? Charles Manson's birthday as a national holiday?

Posted by: Webblog 1 | January 1, 2009 1:56 PM

I continue to be amazed at the the following group of Aldermen, Shah, Golfield, Lemar, Sandman, Rodriquez, and of course Morehead, who consistently propose dead-ended ideas such as this city plan rejected memorial thing... in place of real imaginative and substantive legislative action which attempts to deal with the effective and efficient operation of city government.

Instead of responding to the needs of the citizen taxpayer, this motley crew would rather mask their legislative deficiency by offering these kinds of feel good proposals, which only tends to verify the role they really play in government... the role of abdicating responsibility to the Mayor while rubber stamping his tax and spend proposal in their name.

At this rate..
Happy next year

Posted by: cedarhillresident | January 1, 2009 7:52 PM

Webblog 1
I agree with your comment in general I would add a few alder to the list and maybe take one off. I believe it is things like this and more to come in the next month of two, that are attempts to redirect the citizens attention to from the things that matter. I personal fell into it last year but will do my damnedest to stop it this year. And it has already started. This and other issues. People it is our job to get involved and speak up at the budget hearing when they start! NOT WHEN IT IS TO LATE! It is our jobs as citizens to call these alderman TODAY! tell them that they need to speak out against wasted spending this year!
Board of Finace are the key players! call and email them and show up at the meetings!

these are the alder's on it
FINANCE COMMITTEE
Shah (Chair), Silverman (Vice-Chair), Perez, Goldfield, Jackson-Brooks, Clark, Castro, Lemar, Sandman
These are the decision makers before it even gets to the last vote to the full board of alder's when it is to late to do anything

contact them! Contact info is at
http://www.cityofnewhaven.com/Aldermen/index.asp

Posted by: hope&faith | January 2, 2009 1:07 PM

shaw how about getting your donations not tax payers money and make a monument of an ANGEL OF MERCY with her wings around all children for protection....thats what this city needs some protection...

Posted by: Sarah28 | January 2, 2009 2:05 PM

Here is a sample list of other Victims that Shah would immortalize with monuments:

Death row inmates
Serial killers
Homes Invaders
Etc...
Etc...

They are all victims of some societal dysfunctions ... some actually are victims of real physiological dysfunctions!

Pathetic thinking!

Posted by: Sarah28 | January 2, 2009 3:03 PM

Thanks to Robn for so simply and eloquently stating the new politico-reality: "Raising a monument, ( [ ... ] partially dedicated to shooters), is just politically convenient and a lot easier than dealing with the complexities of real-world solutions...like reducing the number of guns on the streets, getting drugs off the streets, adequately policing those streets, ending no-snitch culture, ending the culture of martyrdom and embracing a culture of life, educating children so that they don't end up on those streets, and educating their parents to keep their kids in school with mentoring and discipline"
Well said and to the point.

The calculated and inevitable inclusion of perpetrators is the same thinking that perpetrates the no-snitching mentality in the city and the poor communities at large. It is a sad and cruel calculation on the part of an elected official to appeal to the dysfunctional and irresponsibles in our communities that are at the very source of the inner city violence.

Shah is trying here to appeal to the same elements of our communities that will not do their share to reduce or eradicate the gun violence. Specifically those that will not or cannot keep their families in check, their kids in after curfew, etc....

That is the "Shah political agenda" to get in, and stay in (election after election).

I hope to see the day where an elected official from a disadvantaged area of the city will show the political courage to tell his / her constituents the wrong therein; encourage and pressure them to do their share, (like everyone else), toward solving the gun violence crisis. Instead we've got Shah sucking up to the families of gangbangers, (dead-ones and thoses still-living-and-operational), which is exactly what This Alderman is doing here to get the next vote!

Posted by: Edward_H | January 3, 2009 10:09 AM

ROBN

Raising a monument (which is, by your own words, partially dedicated to shooters) is just politically convenient

Shah seems consitent in taking the most politically convienient route:

Let's be honest," Shah said. "Potentially that's 90 votes I'm not going to have if that center closes."

At least with the senior center he was upfront about his self sreving politcal motivations.

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2008/06/shah_plans_figh.php

Cedarhill

Problem is lack of people willing to run. No anyone? or even you your self can run.

I think at least some of the disinterest in running is that people do not want to be associated with a group whose members have included an embezzler, race baiters,a woman beater and at least one member who does not have even a basic understanding of constitutional law.

Posted by: Distressed | January 3, 2009 8:35 PM

"Our children are no longer expendable." "Let's not be judgemental of the perpetrators. Nobody has any right to judge why somebody did something unless you're standing in their shoes." These statements are reportedly made by Alderman Shah.

I am quite prepared to give Mr. Shah the benefit of assuming that he means well. However, as voters we need to think very carefully about why we vote for someone. What are the skills that someone running for public office bring to the table of service? Good intentions are not enough. We need public servants who are good effective leaders. We need informed and enlightened leaders whose use of language contribute positively.

Clearly the alderman has a lot of time on his hands; it would be a great help to the community if he used this time to organize families whose children are in gangs, or are heading down the wrong path. With the help of professionals and other caring community people they can strategize & help each other to find ways to prevent younger children from following in the violent footsteps of those gone before. They might demonstrate their love and concern by finding skills training for those who now make their living terrorizing their neighborhoods. Parents need to examine their own lives; the language they use to and about their children and about their neighbors.

Most parents (including the really committed, informed and loving ones) would be frightened to learn how much more their children emulate them than learn from them. We need to be more conscious of the examples we set (that which we do) as much as what we say. The little gods are big gods in training. Some of the statements made by alder Shah are truly disturbing. No doubt he intended them to have positive effects, but because such statements are grossly misused they do more damamge than good; in fact, they are frightening and they carry a hidden price for all of us. If Mr. Shah and other leaders want to be visible, they need to think carefully about the costs of that visibility to the broader community!

Shah is not the only misguided leader we have. These days our communities are peopled by misguided leaders because we vote based upon familiarity, connections and emotions. Most of the truly competent people do not run for public office because the process is often so foul. The few good ones who get through must have the mechanism to organize and compete effectively; at the local level (and particularly in NH) it is hard to pull that off.

Yes, there is serious poverty in New Haven and other communities; there always have been, but compared to their forbears today's young people have it much better. Sadly, poor parenting, an almost non-existent social structure, isolated communities, a lack of political leadership, a mostly silent religious community and asinine statements such as some of these made by Shah have all led these punks to believe that they are entitled to getting whatever they want by pointing a gun. Of course, the well-intended but grossly misguided gun buy-back program (the police dept has) only makes the problem worse.

The young thug gets a gun for $50 from one of his cronies; he turns it in and because that gun is priced at $200-300, and he gets that price, he can now buy six guns to outfit his entire little posse; so one gun has now been replaced by six!

Instead of raising money for a monument Mr. Shah, try working with others to educate and support young parents and children; use the money raised to provide afterschool programs and skills training; provide an alternative to a life of crime. Work hard to wipe out the attraction to gangs and their initiation rites. Build communities again; encourage potluck groups in your ward; encourage neighbors to get to know each other; sponsor sports activities and competitive games; create a chess club; develop talent nights for Fridays & Saturdays; get donated prizes; have round-robin competitions; show poor young people that they are talented and can succeed at doing meaningful activities.

Ask companies to donate computers so kids can learn how to design games where they use their brains rather than their brawn. Build a monument to kids who are making a positive difference. There are many programs in NH that do not get enough young people coming in to participate; recruit for Job Corp and Youth Rights Media. Give young people in NH a positive alternative and help incompetent, irresponsible parents to become better role models and more loving, supportive and effective parents. These are the lasting, productive and positive monuments we need everywhere.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | January 4, 2009 9:54 AM

Distressed
Not sure if anyone is still reading this but great comment!!

Ed
If we do not get people to run we will continue to have politically connected people in these spots. We have some great people in some wards that will be uncontested this year but the yes men spots are the ones we need to go after. I am getting descurage that no one will be running for mayor, so we need to at the least do a check and balance and get someone to get the alderman spot under control! To those in wards that need change, Retired people may be the people to ask to run. They have life experience! They have the time. the few extra dollars is a plus for them and the perks are a plus. But that may be the people you may get to run.

Sorry just need to suggest something!

Posted by: VERY DISTRESSED | January 4, 2009 4:32 PM

"Our children are no longer expendable." "Let's not be judgemental of the perpetrators. Nobody has any right to judge why somebody did something unless you're standing in their shoes." These statements are reportedly made by Alderman Shah.

I am quite prepared to give Mr. Shah the benefit of assuming that he means well. However, as voters we need to think very carefully about why we vote for someone. What are the skills that someone running for public office bring to the table of service? Good intentions are not enough. We need public servants who are good effective leaders. We need informed and enlightened leaders whose use of language contribute positively.

Clearly the alderman has a lot of time on his hands; it would be a great help to the community if he used this time to organize families whose children are in gangs, or are heading down the wrong path. With the help of professionals and other caring community people they can strategize & help each other to find ways to prevent younger children from following in the violent footsteps of those gone before. They might demonstrate their love and concern by finding skills training for those who now make their living terrorizing their neighborhoods. Parents need to examine their own lives; the language they use to and about their children and about their neighbors.

Most parents (including the really committed, informed and loving ones) would be frightened to learn how much more their children emulate them than learn from them. We need to be more conscious of the examples we set (that which we do) as much as what we say. The little gods are big gods in training. Some of the statements made by alder Shah are truly disturbing. No doubt he intended them to have positive effects, but because such statements are grossly misused they do more damamge than good; in fact, they are frightening and they carry a hidden price for all of us. If Mr. Shah and other leaders want to be visible, they need to think carefully about the costs of that visibility to the broader community!

Shah is not the only misguided leader we have. These days our communities are peopled by misguided leaders because we vote based upon familiarity, connections and emotions. Most of the truly competent people do not run for public office because the process is often so foul. The few good ones who get through must have the mechanism to organize and compete effectively; at the local level (and particularly in NH) it is hard to pull that off.

Yes, there is serious poverty in New Haven and other communities; there always have been, but compared to their forbears today's young people have it much better. Sadly, poor parenting, an almost non-existent social structure, isolated communities, a lack of political leadership, a mostly silent religious community and asinine statements such as some of these made by Shah have all led these punks to believe that they are entitled to getting whatever they want by pointing a gun. Of course, the well-intended but grossly misguided gun buy-back program (the police dept has) only makes the problem worse.

The young thug gets a gun for $50 from one of his cronies; he turns it in and because that gun is priced at $200-300, and he gets that price, he can now buy six guns to outfit his entire little posse; so one gun has now been replaced by six!

Instead of raising money for a monument Mr. Shah, try working with others to educate and support young parents and children; use the money raised to provide afterschool programs and skills training; provide an alternative to a life of crime. Work hard to wipe out the attraction to gangs and their initiation rites. Build communities again; encourage potluck groups in your ward; encourage neighbors to get to know each other; sponsor sports activities and competitive games; create a chess club; develop talent nights for Fridays & Saturdays; get donated prizes; have round-robin competitions; show poor young people that they are talented and can succeed at doing meaningful activities.

Ask companies to donate computers so kids can learn how to design games where they use their brains rather than their brawn. Build a monument to kids who are making a positive difference. There are many programs in NH that do not get enough young people coming in to participate; recruit for Job Corp and Youth Rights Media. Give young people in NH a positive alternative and help incompetent, irresponsible parents to become better role models and more loving, supportive and effective parents. These are the lasting, productive and positive monuments we need everywhere.

Posted by: Edward_H | January 4, 2009 6:45 PM

VERY DISTRESSED

Great post but you can't buy a working gun for $50 unless the seller is crazy or some kind of junkie. Illegal guns sell for hundreds of dollars each.

Posted by: Walt | January 5, 2009 6:19 AM

I nominate CedarHill for Alder from her area.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | January 5, 2009 3:48 PM

Walt I may go for a mayor run if know one else does :) Just kidding people.

Walt their are several wards that really need change and need help making it happen. Those are the ward the energy should be put into.

Posted by: anon | January 5, 2009 4:41 PM

webblog - I agree with you, though I would take Lemar and Sandman off your list. Those guys are pretty good eggs who are first and foremost focused on govt. efficiency. Lemar is a bit too much of a liberal on some social things for my liking, Sandman is perfect as far as I'm concerned, but anyone who closely follows the Board of Alders knows that these guys are two of the best on anyone's list.

Posted by: faith&hope | January 5, 2009 8:56 PM

Cedarhill
You said a mouthful...someone has to run lets start with the Mayor....he is to confortable with all his croonies to back him up ..the whole democratic party starting with Susie Voight and all the Mayors yes alderpeople who don't have a mind of there own...just do what the Mayor wants..i will vote and support anyone who runs against him and his croonies..thanz for listing..
Faith & Hope

Posted by: cedarhillresident | January 6, 2009 9:25 AM

As most know I love my songs this one sums it up
http://ia301105.us.archive.org/0/items/ryanharvey_giveittime_final/theconversationspreads.mp3

Posted by: kris | January 7, 2009 7:27 PM

Lets face it Shah,half (or more) of these people that got shot and killed were wrapped up in some illegal activity.You act like these were hard working tax paying law abiding citizens that were innocent bystanders.If they didnt get killed they would have most likely killed someone else.You know the old saying : live by the sword....die by the sword,and thats what they did and continue to do.