New Haven Independent

Posted by: Ed | January 16, 2009 9:10 AM

"When white firefighters received the highest scores on the test, the city decided to throw out the results, saying that the exam displayed a racial bias"

And just what racial bias appeared on the test? Is there a black method of fighting fires? A white
method? Either you know how to fight fires or you don't.

Posted by: kamb | January 16, 2009 9:19 AM

There are other ways to measure an employees performance for promotions, BUT if this is the test that someones takes HOW can you argue it after the results come out. The person who scores best SHOULD get the position if he/she scored better than another employee.

Posted by: City Hall Watch | January 16, 2009 9:41 AM

After all these years, with a black man set to take over the highest office in the land elected by white and black Americans in a united voice, it is disheartening that in New Haven, we still practice plantation politics and use taxpayer money to hire, promote and divide the city along racial lines.

We use written exams for real estate licenses, insurance licenses, drivers licenses, contractor licenses and for the CT Mastery tests and all kinds of exams through school. Black people pass these exams and hold all these licenses - some of which are very difficult to get, much more difficult that a fireman's promotion exam.

Somehow though, black firemen want to dumb down the test to a subjective oral exam and excuse chronic poor performance because of the color of their skin. That is a stunning and ignorant statement. One would have thought we had moved beyond that by now. But then again, what do you expect from an organization that still includes "Colored People" in their name?

Posted by: Tim | January 16, 2009 9:51 AM

When it comes to fighting fires and saving lives, I want the best person to do the day, I dont care if they are white, black, green or whatever, hire and promote the best people, that should be the case for every job but ESPICALLY a job where peoples lives are on the line.

Posted by: Mark | January 16, 2009 10:44 AM

Please. This job requires trust in each and every man and woman you're working next to. YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER AT ALL TIMES...even if the situation seems "routine" (it never is). In any job, but especially firefighting and other public safty careers such as police and EMS, there is nothing more important than trust in your co-worker. The only way that trust is earned is by proving oneself. If you can't pass a test than I don't want you telling me what to do at a fire. I don't trust you.

Posted by: Walt | January 16, 2009 10:51 AM

Isn't it odd that an outfit like the NAACP , formed to fight against racial prejudice, now adopts racial prejudice as a policy to be supported?

Posted by: FIX THE SCHOOLS | January 16, 2009 11:46 AM

Perhaps Affirmative Action still has a place in our social economic policy agenda. Or perhaps it doesn't, that is if Barack Obama believes that we are now beyond the politics of race.

But whether or not you believe in the "hand-up" that Affirmative Action has provided the down-trodden of our society, you must agree that fundamentally we have an EDUCATION problem. The problem is not one of ABILITY, it is one of SKILL. And it is not simply that African-Americans "don't do as well on strictly written exams" as Mr. Day put it. It is that African-Americans don't do as well on exams BECAUSE minorities have never been granted access to an equal education which WOULD THEN allow blacks to compete on ANY kind of exam with ANYBODY.

It is 50 years+ after Brown v BOE, and in this city, one of the most liberal bastions in the entire country, we still have institutionalized racism in the form of a public education system which REFUSES to meet black families and students where they are.

And as hard as our present administrators and teachers are working, they will not get us there. The fact is that leadership has taken all sorts of effective strategies for closing the gap off the table. In fact, they never even got into the room! We know how to close the education gap in a small city of 20,000 students. And we could do it within 10 years. Hartford is already on its way if an aggressive reform agenda stays in place.

Sadly, our city has elected to sign up for the 30 year plan. Why? Because it would be too hard for the system to take. Too much dislocation. Too much disruption to adults who work in and around the system. Too much of a stress to our community. Face it, we simply don't want to change as urgently as we need to.

So tragically, our city leaders would rather fight the civil rights battles of yesteryear rather than adopt version 2.0 of the civil rights movement - the right to an equal education.

Mr. Rawlings and Mayor DeStefano, you may win the fight now - or the Supreme Court may say you are wrong. But if in the 21st century fight for civil rights you continue to apply tactics and strategies from the 1960s, you will be as successful as the soldiers who fought in WW I armed with the weapons, training, and artillery from the civil war era.

Folks, think about it. If New Haven radically altered its approach to educating all of its children, in ten years we wouldn't be having this debate. Maybe that's something that all firefighters can agree on.

Posted by: confused | January 16, 2009 11:59 AM

The Implementation of Affimative action was America's first honest attempt at solving the problems of discrimination of minorities and women. It encompasses a range of measures aimed at compensating for past dicrimination by increasing the changes of minorities and women for jobs,promotions admissions,or contracts.
This has obviosly backfired because no set boundaries were established and many have abused or twisted the fundamentals of this law.It was not meant to lower the standards of excellence expected in these situations or to fill a quota.
As a white maleIbelieve in Affimative action,smart,educated,decent minorities have been over looked for certain positions because of their color,but i also believe that if you want something you have to earn it. For a promotion you need to show you worked hard for it,Which includes reading and studying,not just an oral interview if that is going to be the case then they should be recorded and/or videotaped to see if you answered the questions appropriately.
Would you want Barack Obama running the country if he just had an oral interview? He is were he is because he read and studied and wanted to prove himself and he did just that.Its time to stop making excuses and show that good things come from HARD WORK.

Posted by: Why are they hiding?? | January 16, 2009 12:03 PM

All of the sudden, the self proclaimed "New Haven 20" are no longer touting their god father and supporter. Maybe because it was previously attacked in the New Haven Independent comments section. And poof "Adversity.com" is no longer listed on the New Haven 20 website, after formerly having a prominent position.

I wonder why? I mean why wouldn't these upstanding firefighters not want to let everyone know about their connections to a group which has goodies like this on its website:

"Nappy Headed Ho Controversy! Or Not.
Here's what Don Imus said. And while you're at it, read up on the crazy history of white people trying to talk about nappy hair."

Or how about:

"Former Black Atlanta Mayor Bill Campbell CONVICTED!
In March 2006 Atlanta's divisive, race-baiting, high-living, corrupt mayor -- Bill Campbell -- was convicted of tax evasion."

And it's important that Campbell (like his predecessors and successors) is black because . . .?

Or check out how they compare (I'm serious) the Holocaust to affirmative action -- just click on "ethnic cleansing":

http://www.adversity.net/Terms_Definitions/terms_main_frame.htm

Why won't the New Haven 20 come clean that its entire effort is being backed by a bunch of right wing reactionary nuts. Who would associate with these bigots and why?

Might be worth the Independent turning its investigative journalists onto that. Is this the only rightwing group of nuts supporting the "New Haven 20"? or are there even more problematic groups? Whose paying the bills? Some of these groups make a big deal of trying to create tensions between races across the country and seem like they have some allies here in New Haven.

Posted by: Streever | January 16, 2009 12:17 PM

Can we see a copy of this test?

I'm just curious.

I mean, I don't need a fire fighter to be able to do physics. I just need s/he to show up & fight a fire with the training they've received.

I can't imagine too many people have practical experience in fighting fires that you can quantify on a written test.

Can anyone describe the process & the test here?

If it's a blind test it makes no sense to keep it. If they are enrolled in some type of fire academy and need to pass at the end, it makes sense to test, but maybe the test does need to be evaluated.

Who really thinks most standardized tests are actual measures of competence or intellect? There are some that are excellent, but without seeing this test, I'm not certain that it's some work of genius.

Let's see the test & the process of fire fighter training/hiring. That's what we need to make qualified judgements on this.

Posted by: unprotected | January 16, 2009 12:31 PM

Would the NAACP back the city if it threw out the test if 19 black and 1 hispanic were in the top 20? The best candidates should get the jobs!!

Posted by: jay | January 16, 2009 1:04 PM

how insulting that you say "Historically, as African-Americans, we don't do as well on strictly written exams"
enough said!

Posted by: Donna | January 16, 2009 1:36 PM

What I want to know is, what happened after they "threw out the test"? Did they administer another that TPTB deemed NOT to have a racial bias? What were the results of that test? Specifically, how did the "New Haven 20" (give me a break) fare? And what was the racial makeup of the people who actually GOT the promotions in question??

Posted by: Drop the Hammer | January 16, 2009 1:53 PM

Streever,
That is an insulting and condescending comment. Not to mention it speaks directly to your ignorance of how the world works. As you clearly don't understand, fire is a dynamic chemical reaction. Firefighters MUST have a firm grasp of many concepts including but not limited to: chemistry, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, physics, hazardous material handling, construction, logistics, communications, first aid, fluid dynamics, environmental issues, even understanding the effects of weather! Think about that pilot who safely landed that plane in the Hudson River. Do you think he had to pass some tests? I bet he did!

Posted by: Moreorless | January 16, 2009 2:40 PM

To answer the last poster--A firefighter entry test, which is what it sounds like you are describing, is much different than a Lt. or Capt. test. Equate a firefighter to a grunt in the military vs Lt, Capt., Major, etc. The higher in rank the more you need to know to keep your crew(s) safe (i.e; strategy & tactics & knowing what is safe & unsafe) The tests are based on Dept. SOP's, Field accepted Strategy & Tactics, and Fire Officer operational responsibilities. If you studied the given material, and knew what you were doing, you could pass (anyone who is a firefighter has a chance to pass this test.) Also, FF's do much more than fight fires. They also respond to medical calls, MVA's, HAZMAT incidents and many more.
The people at this meeting want only one thing, and that is a Do-Over. They did not count on the fact that so many individuals were going to put a huge effort into passing these exams. Unfortunately for individuals like G. Tinney, he spent his time going out at night and sleeping in his Lt's room (as witnessed by numerous firefighters) This particular individual had 3 firefighters (2 white & 1 African American) end up respectively #1, #4 & #14 on the Lt's list, yet he did not even pass the Capt.'s test (both tests LT & Capt, were written from the same material). Hmm. what is wrong with this picture--I'll tell--he missed numerous sessions with his study group. The 3 other prospective candidates always showed up.
These test are not race based, they are job requirement based. Nothing you learn as a firefighter is bread into you, you actually have to learn it.
Last note--if New Haven is & has always been a discriminatory city, why do African Americans keep electing Destefano into office--hmm--is it because NH is not discriminatory, and these particular individuals just want to lay blame for their failure on the city instead of looking into the mirror.
"The more effort, the sweeter the reward"

Posted by: Ed | January 16, 2009 2:45 PM

Streever, go back and read the article again. The test was for a promotion, not entering the fire service. So you'd like to see the test? What firefighting credentials do YOU have to make a judgement?

Posted by: William Kurtz | January 16, 2009 5:12 PM

David Streever makes an excellent point and I wonder the same thing myself every time I read about this story. For obvious reasons, the agencies involved aren't going to let anyone look at the current test, but are there released items from past years made available for practice tests? Is there publicly available information about the format of the test? What knowledge or skills are being assessed, and by what methods?

If, as Moreorless tells us (and I have no reason to think he's inaccurate in any way), the promotion exam is based on the knowledge that one accumulates as a working firefighter, then it makes sense for it to be an important component in the decision, but at the same time, no paper-and-pencil test can properly assess the less tangible qualities that go into leadership.

Consider this: if demonstrated concrete knowledge of facts, figures, and procedures was the most important qualification, we might be re-inaugurating President Kerry on Tuesday--or watching someone succeed President Gore.

Furthermore, is there any public information about the range of scores? The 'New Haven 20' scored the highest, but where does number 21 fall? If, for example, the highest score is a perfect '100' and the 21st highest score is a '95,' I'm not sure that five points necessarily means that the higher-scoring candidate would make a better officer. As has already been said above, sometimes people with the most knowledge aren't the most qualified.

I understand the concerns of the 20 firefighters who feel they have been wronged, and indeed, if department policy or practice has always been to promote based solely on the results of the written exam, then they have good reason to be angry but in that event, policy or practice needs to be revised to account for the wide spectrum of qualities an agency should look for in an officer.

Posted by: Webblog 1 | January 16, 2009 6:50 PM

The fact is that the city and all other cities in the U.S. have been providing civil service test for over a century and achieving the same results as this one. White persons have received the highest scores. As a result, 40% or better of citizens either have not been hired or not scoring
well enough to be considered. If this has been so for more than a century, what you not examine the test format for it's content and usefulness for modern day society?? I would think so.

However in New Haven's case, skewered test and results is nothing new. Fact in point, in 2007 the fire department offered a recruiting test based on three elements. Oral, physical, and comprehension. After the test, the city revealed the only portion of the test to be considered for scoring would be the oral portion. In this case the majority top scores went to whites... Go figure!

Clearly, the problem in New Haven is and has been political,that fact is clearly reflected in the planning and administration of the test, which according to Smuts was planned and administered by an outside consultant.

In a legal context, however, two lower courts have sided with the city based on existing U.S.Law. Hold your powder until the U.S. Supreme Court weighs-in.

Posted by: Streever | January 16, 2009 7:05 PM

Hey,
Drop the Hammer, Ed,

Why turn this into a personal battle?

Because it's easier to shut people up then discuss things? Ahhh.

No one is infallible! I misunderstood. But it's still a valid point.

Do we know what this test actually scores?

I'd like to see a copy. I'm not claiming to be a firefighter, but if it's geometry problems, I'm going to side with the city on this one. If it appears to be a comprehensive & detailed list of questions which they'd need to know, then I'd say it shouldn't be omitted.

And, Kurtz also has a good point: how great was the discrepancy?

I don't think a written test should be the sole measure of someone's competence. That sounds like a recipe for a disaster. Academic dishonesty is a common occurence--I'm not suggesting ANY of the New Haven 20 are in any way guilty of this, but I am questioning the merits of making decisions purely based on written tests, if that is what is happening here.

What if someone tests extremely well but functions extremely poorly under stress?

This is an important qualification for a fire fighter or a jet pilot. I'd like that to be considered as well when promoting.

Posted by: Streever | January 16, 2009 7:06 PM

I mean, let's be real: It doesn't always boil down to "You're an idiot 24/7 and I never am." Just because you (Drop the Hammer & Ed) & I disagree on many things doesn't mean we can't both have valid points on some things.

I've never denied that the New Haven 20 have every right to feel angry--or even to sue. I've just said I'm reserving a judgement on this matter until I see more details.

Does that seriously make me an idiot who is completely out of touch with reality? I like to think I'm just a little more moderate & a little less knee-jerk than some people.

I don't understand how a moderate stance so often encourages a vitriolic, shrill, or hateful response here--but I can only chalk it up to the perception of anonymity.

Posted by: Eileen | January 16, 2009 8:44 PM

Check out the New Haven 20 website. The exam was "approved" by all parties prior to the exam and stipulated as race neutral by city lawyers during the trial in New Haven. So...here is the debate, when do we stop entitlements? When do we stop political appointments over public safety? When do we stop debating about race when we are about to swear in our first black President?
This case is about FAIRNESS, and it is not about reverse descrimination, but simply descrimination. Our Constitution protects people based on race, gender, religion, and sexual orientation. It quarantees equal opportunity, not equal sucess. Success is up to the individal.
It seems that the NAACP and the New HAven 20 are on the same page, that both do not want RACE as the determining factor in hiring and/or promoting. So you may ask where is the problem...
ENTITLEMENTS and political favoritism (remember John wanted to be governor?)
To make an informed comment and learn about case history, please refer to SCROTUS or the Supreme Court web site.

Posted by: Donald Day | January 16, 2009 8:45 PM

Let me tell you what Donald Day said. I said that strictly written tests are not and have never been a fair indicator of whether a person will be a better fire fighter, a better police officer, a better doctor or a better anything. I said that a fairer way to judge a person competency on an exam would be an exam that evaluates all the qualities that it takes for the position in which you are testing. Would you want a doctor that was great in the classroom, but couldn't pass the practicals? The same can be said with the Fire Service, the best officer is one that knows the technical side of the fire service, but also knows how to fight fires, how to deal with people, how to lead and to delegate authority, one that posses honesty and integrity, one that has the ability to be a team player and one that respects the diversity of the community they work and serve.

These are the true qualities that make a person a better officer. A written exam is not equipped, nor has the capacity to measure those dynamics and if the exam that the New Haven 20 passed did, New Haven never got the most qualified candidates for the officer's exams. African Americans and Latinos have historically fared better on exams that were not strictly written and those that were written and in conjunction with another component whether it's an oral or an Assessment Center type exam. These exams are a much better indicator of an individual's ability to be an officer.

There are communities all across America that are administering fair and impartial exams in the Fire service and if they can do it certainly New Haven can as well. As a retired Captain of the Bridgeport Fire Department who passed my Lieutenants exams at 110th and when Federal Courts ruled our test was discriminatory I was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant. By the time I could take a Captains exam and the City of Bridgeport had a fair and impartial exam I was number two on that exam. Did the white fire fighters who I competed with for the rank of Lieutenant, get dumber or did I suddenly get smarter or did the City finally prepare an exam that was fair and impartial? If the test was dumb downed as one of you fools alluded to then would it stand to reason that those whites that passed ahead of me would be that further ahead of the dumb Black man? The fact is that the Captains exam was a fairer and the better exam because it took into consideration all the qualities of Leadership and not just those that can be found in the pages of IFSTA. (Fire Department Study Books)

There are a myriad of testing companies that have demonstrated that they can prepare an exam that isn't culturally biased, that won't have a disparate impact on anyone and one that is job related and relevant to the position tested. One of those individuals is Dr, James Outtz, Ph.D. of Washington D.C. Dr. Outtz is recognized for his work involving the development of testing procedures that focus on the reduction of adverse impact. He was a major force involved in developing the concept of sliding band procedures and he was also responsible for creating dynamic video simulations for selection purposes. He has been active in sharing his knowledge through publications, participation in a variety of symposia and conferences, and through his service as an expert witness in a number HR-related court proceedings. Dr. Outtz has created exams that are fair to everyone, that are job related, that relevant to the position being tested and to the communities where the testers protect and here's the biggy, tests that have withstood litigation.

This isn't personal, this isn't about Affirmative Action or about getting Blacks positions at the expense of Whites, it's only about being given a chance to reach elevated rank or positions within your employment based to a fair and impartial exam. That's all the Firebirds want, that's all Black people all across America want and that all any reasonable person should want. Being treated fairly is a fundamental right that one should expect, not wonder if it's attainable.

Posted by: Interesting | January 16, 2009 8:55 PM

Wow. All those subjects that firefighters have to know -- chemistry; physics; management; etc. I'm glad they all passed up Yale to come serve us. Let's get real here.

We have firefighters in New Haven that are running around choking each other. One who jumped out of a truck and beat up his wife's divorce lawyer. We have overtime abuse because supervision is lacking. We need to check whether supervisors are drunk on the job. I get all of this just from reading this online paper.

Let's get some level of honesty. These tests are not the rough equivalent of the bar exam. They are one way to separate out who gets promoted. Have they been effective in creating a well run fire department in New Haven -- that would be an absurd argument to make.

I am more than happy to say that firefighters need to know emergency medical treatment and should be tested in these skills, but it seems like the EMT ranks are quite racially diverse. And I'm guessing this is not the easiest thing to learn. How come there seems to be a relatively equal passage rate on these tests?

If tests are determining the management skills of our current firehouse leadership then the tests should all be thrown out.

The fire department is one giant patronage shop where overtime is given out willy-nilly; there are physical altercations and who is in charge is often in question. How about we stop pretending everything was going great until civil service decided to hold back these tests.

How is it that only white guys passed the test? Ever talk to our firefighters? One does not get a sense that one race of firefighters is smarter, harder working, more committed -- quite the opposite. They seem to be a mixed bag. Some are smart, some capable, some dim, some overwhelmed. But none of this seems to have any connection to the color of their skin. They are not on the whole a group who you would expect to ace the SATs (just like the rest of America).

Again -- this is not like an issue where the children of Asian immigrants tend to score better than white or black applicants to Ivy League schools. This is a fire fighters captains' test so let's stop pretending that one group studied like they were getting their PhD while the other group stayed out and partied. There is no statistically evident reason for no African-American to score in the top 20.

It is more than a little surprising that only white guys passed the test. For some reason, no one wants to state the obvious. There was a problem with this exam. The problem was either in who studied what, who had access to what information, who studied together, or what role existing leadership had in helping people study.

Why this was never examined, who knows. But if you know our firefighters, then the results of this test make you extremely suspicious.

Too bad we are now debating affirmative action when it's more than likely something much simpler happened here. Can we get a lie detector test administered to everyone involved and their supervisors before we kick over taxpayer money?

Posted by: ap | January 16, 2009 9:50 PM

I agree with Donna. I want to know what happened next after the city threw out the test results? Who ultimately got promoted? Did 20 black firefighters get the promotions? Did some of the firefighters whose test scores were thrown out still receive promotions? Were the promotions given to a mix of black, white, and latino firefighters, and on what basis? It seems entirely reasonable to me to use criteria other than a test as a way to make the decision. The test could be one factor among many. But the story leaves out any exploration of these details. I need more info!

Posted by: che15 | January 16, 2009 10:12 PM

Are written tests an accurate depiction of one's skills? No. However it is the most effective way to promote someone without the city being sued. It is not the best way to determine a person's talents but it is the fair way to promote.

Posted by: Sins of New Haven | January 16, 2009 10:16 PM

why don't we hand out coloring books and crayons instead of tests? those who color nice in the lines get the job.

imagine if doctors and surgeons were allowed to practice medicine without being "book smart" and we enabled to practice without a license based on race?

I as a resident don't care what color you are if you are saving me life. All I ask is that you are professionally trained by other professionals who pass all credentials to do such.

That, my friends is why I call my website sins of new haven. It's a sin who they play with out public safety. JD is just politricking. He's just really good fooling himself as if we can't see that. Plus:

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/01/13/news/a3-nevictorbolden.txt

Posted by: Hood Rebel | January 16, 2009 10:26 PM

This case is about "Disparate Impact" which is a well documented, legitimate and recognized legal theory.

Disparate Impact is "A theory of liability that prohibits an employer from using a facially neutral employment practice that has an unjustified adverse impact on members of a protected class. A facially neutral employment practice is one that does not appear to be discriminatory on its face; rather it is one that is discriminatory in its application or effect"

Given this legal theory, the city should and will win this case.

Posted by: Moreorless | January 16, 2009 11:19 PM

The tests are 2 components 1) written=60% & 2) Oral=40%. So you can gauge experience & book smarts all in one test--that's ingenious.

Posted by: bettin man | January 17, 2009 6:36 AM

The issue at hand is not the test. The test was deemed valid and accurate by both the testing company and the three experts the city brought in to evaluate the exams. The point is, why didn't the minorities complain before the test? Now the are crying over the spilled milk. As far as Outz goes, look at the mess in Bridgeport as a result of his testing. Let's not use them as a barometer.

Posted by: James | January 17, 2009 8:56 AM

Donald Day

You make a compelling case and while there's certainly no way to convey my sincerity in writing, I really do hope for a day when race plays no role in socioeconomic status. Merit should be the only factor in achievement.

But in this case I simply have to wonder what would have happened if the top 20 scores all went to black men. Would the City still have thrown out the test that was previously approved by all parties? And what would such a test have looked like? These aren't rhetorical questions. I'm truly curious as to your point of view as well as what makes a test racially biased.

Posted by: kamb | January 17, 2009 9:45 AM

I HAVE A GREAT POINT - The system is flawed! I'll tell you why. These firefighters who could not score high on the promotional exam and probably should NEVER have even been hired in the first place. They all probably scored low on their entrance exams into the FD but got hired because of Affirmative Action lowering the standards for them. NOW they must compete on a fair equal ground and they cant.

GO STUDY HARDER! You'll feel better about yourself if you work hard and earn a higher score rather than something be given to you based on how you look.

Posted by: John John | January 17, 2009 12:38 PM

what is the naacp actively doing to see to it that people of color score better on the tests they have been scoring lower on? i've heard nothing of their plan to develop a new test, nor a plan to improve scores on the current one.

Posted by: Firefighter Sick of Politics | January 17, 2009 1:04 PM

Few of these commentators know what they are talking about. First and foremost, the results of this competition were NOT based simply on written test scores. Yes, there was a written job knowledge exam that tested candidates' levels of job knowledge - that is, fire science, building construction, tactical protocols, command protocols, and a host of other matters one needs to know to command first responders in an emergency. But there was another phase - an oral assessment. The city recruited 30 high-ranking fire professionals from around the U.S. (that is, experts who held the rank of Deputy Chief, Chief, Battalion Chief, Cpt etc) to interact with the candidates in an oral assessment. Candidates were presented with a variety of emergency scenarios, given time to organize their thought, and then asked to articulate how they would command that scene. One thing the Firebirds keep hiding from the public is the fact that this group of assessors was race-weighted in THEIR favor - that is, whites were a MINORITY and the assessor group was dominated by minorities, even thought the majority of test-takers were white. So the suggestion that the thumb was on the scale in favor of whites is garbage. And, more whites failed these exams than blacks. But these failing white candidates didn't whine. So, all you people who are misrepresenting this process as some kind of unfair reliance on a single written test score are in denial. This process was eminently job-related and fair and those who failed or achieved low scores have no one to blame but themselves for watching TV while other guys hit the books. And playing the race card, and stealing hard-earned promotions from your brother firefighters is just about the lowest thing you can do. The Firebirds have wrecked this department with their race-mongering and entitlement attitudes. The pulled political strings to keep the vacancies open for themselves and now they are whining that their victims dare to challenge this nonsense in court. One final point - three black candidates and two hispanics did well and qualified and they got victimized too. But none of them were active in or leaders of the Firebirds. So the Firebirds screwed other minorities out of their justly earned promotions. But they don't want to talk about THAT. This was about a few selfish, politically connected cronies of Boise Kimber, not about fairness to minorities. They played the worst kind of race card. One that was used for themelves at the expense of brothers. And as for Donald Day... the mere fact that he doesn't know that this case involved a combined written and oral assessment where candidates were rated by minority professionals shows that he is either ignorant or is milking this case for the limelight. He should have minded his own business, something he might learn to do after he sees the Supreme Court's decision, which hopefully will spell the end to Day's divisive race baiting and destruction of morale among people who are supposed to tight like brothers on the job.

Posted by: k | January 17, 2009 4:30 PM

Dear Mr Day, I have been a CNA for 14 years and I wanted to become an RN. I graduated from nursing school but cant pass the state test to become a LICENSED Registered Nurse.Can you talk to someone about letting me be a nurse anyway and I promise to do my job the best I can.Get it Mr Day!!!You cant become an RN,MD,lawyer,pharmacist,electrician or even a school bus driver without taking a test.Children cant get into the 2nd grade without passing tests in the 1st grade.Get over it. And then someone from the NAACP says "its about race but its not about race".Ya that means its about race when you want it to be,ya cant have it both ways.KEEP FIGHTING NH 20 & GOOD LUCK. I hope you win!

Posted by: Maxine | January 17, 2009 5:36 PM

The above comments by "Interesting" are ridiculous. He obviously doesn't know his facts. He says he finds it odd that only whites passed the exam. For your information, many whites failed these exams too. And they shouldn't be promoted either but they didn't whine like the minorities who failed. They just understand, like any rational person would, that in order to pass and do well, they need to hit the books harder next time. Who the heck would want someone in a Captain command position who failed a competency exam and further failed to impress the oral assessors in an oral test of skills and judgment? If you flunked, you don't get the job - I don't care what color you are, especially in a job where lives are at stake.

Posted by: Moreorless | January 17, 2009 11:24 PM

The time is coming and it is coming fast. Listen up Donald Day & the NAACP--you are now the boy who cried wolf too many times. All you have is excuse after excuse as to why African Americans do not perform well on exams, or other entry level positions. Look in the mirror, not at the testing methods.
"the more effort, the sweeter the reward"

Posted by: kamb | January 18, 2009 3:55 AM

To Firefighter Sick of Politics,
Great points. That says it all.

Posted by: Bill | January 18, 2009 4:13 PM

Streever based on your usual comments, I doubt you have ever had a moderate stance in your life. To question tests for promotion to Lieutenant and Captain is idiotic. How would you measure knowledge? I would ask questions, thats what tests are whether they be verbal or written. What you are advocating is DISCRIMINATION.

Posted by: stephanie carbone | January 18, 2009 4:55 PM

Let us not forget that the City of New Haven spent $150,000 having this promotional exam reviewed to determine bias, and, infact the results were that is was NOT a racially biased exam. The NAACP comments that if this case should be judged in favor of the firefighters, then "back to the bad old days" of not being hired based on race...this was a promotional exam, these people were already firefighters, this is about promotions, not hiring. I am married to a firefighter, I have nothing but the highest respect for all of them, white, black, or hispanic, man or woman. It saddens me to see how this has created a divide between a group of people whos very lives depend on comradery. Maybe Donald Day and the rest of the folks at the NAACP meeting should grab a copy of our wonderful, new president's speech that he gave in Philadelphia called The Race Speech. In it he states"...working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union."

Posted by: Streever | January 19, 2009 12:22 PM

Bill,

did you read what I wrote? You read the first part. Kind of like your quoting of the story on Health Care. You skipped "I'm not picking a side here. I'd like to see more information, & that's what I'm advocating--that we reserve passing judgement until we have all the information."

On the healthcare story, I said it's unfair that a 15 year old boy needs a Senator to intervene in order to see a doctor.

You think that's not moderate? Your the guy who assumed his grandmother doesn't have a job or any money.

Posted by: RUSS | January 19, 2009 7:06 PM

Hey Firebirds, NAACP
You have to earn what you obtain in life. You cannot keep getting things for free.
Next time try reading (if you can) and studying instead of partying. NO more handouts

Posted by: Kevin | January 19, 2009 7:11 PM

God Bless the New Haven 20 -- Keep fighting for
justice. You earned your promotions.
DeStefano has been a miserable failure as a Mayor.
We will keep praying for you, Stay safe and keep going.

Posted by: ExperiencedIt | January 19, 2009 7:29 PM

Please, Please fellas

Don't you guys know that these African American Firefighters (the Firebirds) are unable to experienced the success you worked so hard for all your lives, unless it's handed to them - much like children need to have it handed to them.

Posted by: ReallyConfused | January 19, 2009 8:50 PM

Im confused so the IABPFF is an association only for Black Firefighters? Wouldn't it be considered racist and discriminatory if there was a IAWPFF just for the Whites. Is it another union within the union? What about the Hispanic Firefighters do they have one? How about Asian Firefighters? That doesnt seem in line with the word "union" meaning together. Maybe the "firebirds" is an antiquated association that needs to go away. It seems like it is dividing the whole Fire Department.

Posted by: new haven 20 supporter | January 20, 2009 7:17 AM

If you support the new haven 20 like I do, you can help out.

www.newhaven20.com

Posted by: Westvillite | January 20, 2009 10:51 AM

INTERESTING places some important and true comments on the table pertaining to the NHFD. If you think back over the years, just look at some of the names of newly hired firefighters and romoted officers and who they are related to in city government. Did they really pass a test or were they taken care of through Johnny's system of merit? It's really time that someone from the outside takes a good lok at how the FD is managed - take about waste and abuse of funds. When people attempt to challenge the city's system of politics, a full team press in ordered by the teams' coach. Substance abuse, well I'm told its alive and well but only one person has had the courage to stand up and speak - he was quietly ushered back down to his arena seat and the NH Register told him to still still with his mouth closed. Talk about political connections with the staff who writes these things! The fact of the matter still remains, only those who devote their lives to bettering themselves will prevail - that will be told in Washington, D.C. Let's see how much clout JD has now.

Posted by: Moreorless | January 20, 2009 1:58 PM

To answer Westville, the individuals who passed this test would welcome outside scrutiny. This would show to the general public,it would show the firefighters passed a Fair & Valid test, and deserve these promotions. The names on the 2 promotional lists are not politically backed, and that is why the test was scuttled in the first place(does that make sense to you now.) The only reason you are not hearing about the test specifics is because it would shake the foundations of city's stance. They would lose any support they have in the general public.

Posted by: John | January 20, 2009 6:39 PM

ok lets throw out the whole race part of this....
i dont care what job it is, doctor, firefighter, cop, teacher, whoever is the best for the job should get it period. there shouldnt be anything more to it. i wouldnt want someone who is less qualified for a job like that helping me out just because of the color of their skin, and they only got the job for that reason too. this country guarantees equal opportunity to everyone regardless of race. it doesnt say that everyone will succeed the same.

Posted by: Kim | February 6, 2009 5:22 PM

First, I think that Individual Firefighter's comments on the New Haven 20 webpage demonstrates that they are not the type of individuals that I would want leading any group of individuals. To make a broad statement about the reasons why the black firefighters scored in one way and the white firefighter scored another way demonstrates that these individuals have no understanding of different cultures, backgrounds, races etc. and his comments come very close to being racist.

Second, the civil service examination taken by the firefighters was not to determine who would be a firefighter. They were all already firefighters. The test was to determine who should be promoted to the ranks of captain and lieutenant. I believe that one of the officers indicated that he had spent $1,000 for study material, taken time off, hired a tutor etc. The qualities that determine whether one would make a good leader, manager etc. is nothing something that can be learned by studying an examination in a month or two.

What if an individual did not have $1,000 for study material or could afford to take time off or hire a tutor. Does that mean that this person is not a good leader or as qualified as the person who learns to take these civil service examinations?

The entire process needs to be rehauled if you ask me.

With respect to the oral part of the examination, who sat on the board to evaluate the firefighters; did the firefighters come from a long generation of firefighters who could mentor and educate them on how to take these test and examinations. Because minorities were not allowed to become firefighters (and police officers), they sometimes don't always get the advice and "in's" on these examinations.

My sister worked in Ohio where civil service examinations were given. She witnessed a co-worker altering the scores for a white applicant who failed the examination but refused to give the black applicant the same two additional points needed to pass.

From a legal perspective, the City did not discriminate against these firefighters. They did not refuse to promote these firefighters because they were white. The City recognized that they had given an examination that had a disparate impact on minorities and they did the right thing by not using that examination.

Certainly, people would agree that the best trial attorney is not the person who scored the highest on the LSAT or bar examination, but the attorney who has a good rapport with the jury, understands the facts of the case, has good instinct, judgment etc. etc. When considering promotions into these higher level positions, the City and State needs to come up with alternative ways to determining who is best for these positions----I simply do not believe that these examinations show who is the best qualified...they simply show who is the best test taker or even who has the money and the means to prepare best for these tests.

Posted by: FRANK | February 8, 2009 6:43 PM

Why was the asualt of a hispanic firefighter involved in the nh 20 not reported ? Two firebirds reportedly beet a fellow fire fighter almost unconsious at hupfrey's . come on donald explain !! things are coming to a head hey firebirds it not about black or white now!!! theres a black President... Its about green $$$$$$$$$ you study hard you get the job , Just like Oboma...no more free rides ,,,, Remmeber we from the North came to the south to help....

Posted by: Jim | April 19, 2009 2:59 PM

If you tell the fire that you are black, will it slow down and give you extra time to assess the situation?

Posted by: faharrell | April 22, 2009 1:33 PM

I agree with Jay's 1/16/2009 post. What does it mean "Historically, as African Americans, we don't do as well on strictly written exams"? I've never heard of a black person arguing about how he/she had more difficulty passing an exam to obtain a driver's license, real estate license, etc. What makes this any different? Would a black person fight a fire any different than a white person and therefore need to be presented with an exam more conducive to the fact? I just want the "best" person available to come to my house, should there be a fire, I don't care if he/she is green. I can't believe the NAACP is taking this on. As one black to another, Please STOP crying "Unfair", "Unjust", "Racism" ad infinitum and just start doing what you know you can do, just as well or even better. APPLY YOURSELF TO KNOWLEDGE!! YOU WILL SUCCEED!! Stop letting others tell you, you're not as good, at certain things, as others because you're black. Good Grief, ENOUGH already!

Posted by: Creoleguy32 | April 22, 2009 4:09 PM

I was in the Marine Corp and stationed in 4 major cities around the U.S.-and I have lived in the Bronx, Queens, Long Beach,Ca and I have NEVER EVER IN MY 35 years of life in America-SEEN A BLACK FIREMAN! NEVER!

Posted by: Ed in New Haven | April 22, 2009 8:17 PM

The New Haven 20 are a jok... for one when Cheryl Broadnax was the first Black Firewoman to work in the City of New Haven most of these individuals made sure she had a hard time. There are rumors that it is customary in New Haven to give Whites and Politically connected individuals cheat sheets with the answers to many of the test, also within the EMT, Firefighters, and Police officers, it has been historically noted in New Haven that the predominant race and nationality to be in these position were the Irish and Italians and that these positions are generational and handed down from family member to family member. If it wasn't for the Civil Right Acts, it is my opinion that we would see more incidents like Flodquist in New Haven. The question that should be presented is how do you insure that when an individual takes a test in the city of New Haven that there is a level playing field, that the test that each and every person is receiving has total impartiality, that cannot be done unless you have a diverse panel writes the test 24 hours before distributing the test (that will never happen in New Haven). After this hearing newer standard of testing should be devised and incorporated throughout this country, ridding the good old boys club of their underhanded tactics, I know many will not like this final statement but I hope the New Haven 20 lose because their case is not about fairness and if you talk to many of them you realize how uneducated they are, you began to question how they got as far as they did. Talk to them outside of the public and see how many f bombs you get.

Posted by: Dennis Dowhy | April 26, 2009 5:11 PM

Before this exam, this group wanted us (Specifically one of our best trainers, who happened to be black) to train them for free. When he told them I would have to be contacted (I am white) they didn't want me, nor were they willing to pay our fee. If they had, I would have guaranteed them there would be members of this organization in the top 10! To do well, one needs to understand the purpose of assessment exams and why they were developed. In addition, motivation, study habits, and knowledge on what to study all contribute to the outcome of an exam. When should one study? From the first day they arrive on the job. Knowledge saves lives both in the real world of firefighting and on written and oral assessment exams. What ever the outcome of the exam, one should want to know how to save lives not the "New Haven" way but the way required by national law (NFA) as well as standardized well accepted practices within the fire service.

Posted by: Talton | May 7, 2009 7:38 PM

Enough with the "woah is me!" If the negros, and I am a black man, could not pass the test, then their black assess need to go home and freaking study. Give me a break. We're talking about a test! A written damn test! Study, study, study!!!!

Posted by: q | May 26, 2009 9:20 AM

Study! Pass test, stop whining!

Posted by: Me | June 2, 2009 4:41 PM

firefightersickofpolitics has the best post hands down...

What else can be said. If you scored low, shut up and do better next time. The race card is getting old.

Posted by: crosscannon | June 30, 2009 10:38 PM

V
I am familiar with these exams, they are tough, and take a lot of preparation. Many members have to study for over a year to compete. There are no secrets to the exam other than preparation and study. A friend of mine scored a 96 on a recent civil service exam, this was a result of studying every day for at least an hour for a year. There are seminars and tutors to assist as well. I am proud of the firefighters that studied, passed, and have gone through this laborious process in order for justice to occur. For those of you that are whining about poor education levels in impoverished areas of New Haven, any person, regardless of race, creed or color, can purchase an exam preparation book at any book store, that's where it starts. The sky is the limit if you know how to work hard!! Stop with the excuses and do better next time.

Posted by: Tom | July 13, 2009 11:47 AM

Do you truly feel that all those white firefighters in New Haven Connecticut could pass a lie-detector test declaring; that they were not given the answers to the exam?
I have personally witness this going on in the work force, colleges and the military. To make sure that the white males stay on top, they are given the answers to the exam; or the blacks are just told that they did not do as well as the whites on the oral part of the exam.