New Haven Independent

Posted by: lance | March 25, 2009 7:38 PM

The NAACP is only concerned with getting blacks promoted, not the folks best qualified for the supervisor positions.

And they have the president and the attorney general behind them.

Posted by: City Hall Watch | March 25, 2009 8:14 PM

It is not surprising that all these civil rights groups come here to espouse the virtues of reverse rascism. Under John Brittain's version of the law, black firefighters could tie up a promotion exam forever by simply not studying and as a class, do poorly. This is what's reported to have happened here by those who passed the exam. So, did they study or not?

As for John Muhammad's comment about harming national security, that's just border line ignorant and nearly as bad as saying book smarts don't have anything to do with promotions. Sorry to inform you Mr. Muhammad, book smarts are used for promotion from 1st grade on; in every job I've ever held; and every license I've ever gotten. It is always a dose of cold water to see people of color practice rascism so fervantly and hold themselves to such a low standard especially when this week in the NHI, there was a wonderful story about a group of low income kids, black and dedicated to making a better path for themselves. They won huge and are going on to the finest private college prep schools in the state. They did so by studying hard, discipline and dedication, not by making excuses for being black.

Posted by: Beansie's Mom | March 26, 2009 6:52 AM

To Dennis Thompson, esq.

Really, the Boston RedSox. Baseball and Civil Service exams are nothing alike. Baseball is a for profit business in this country.

Lately, the Red Sox having been doing better than either the Yankees or the NY Mets. So management and the prayers of the faithful and grateful must be working up north.

This city has delayed promotions in both the NHPD and the NHFD. Who pays for these delays? The children of the men and women who serve the residents and workers in the city of New Haven.

Race had nothing to do with the matter when that large fire occurred awhile back in downtown. Men and women did their jobs and saved countless lives and property by containing that horrible fire. And what does the developer want to do? Sue the fire department and the city.

I'm very aware of Sheff vs O'Neill. But what is the condition of the Hartford School system now?

Look at the scandals that have brought mayors of Bridgeport, Waterbury and now Hartford into court.
Let's not forget the recently paroled Governor.

That baseball analogy. Perhaps you can recall a time in this country, WWII when there was no male professional baseball league. When women worked in the factories.

Where are the factories now? What's happening to the elderly that survived WWII and have raised children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren?

When the New Haven Fire Deparment goes to its most frequest address for service do you think the residents of Bella Vista care who get's there. Male Female. No.

In this case it is the administration that has allowed squeakly wheels to delay promotions and therefore lose the best qualified to other parts of the region.

I'm praying that the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court and his collegues do the right thing.

Posted by: Borist | March 26, 2009 7:56 AM

What a joke.Stop crying and when the next test comes up try to study.Lets stop all this bull about racism.go to work and be thankfull you have a job.

Posted by: Bill | March 26, 2009 8:03 AM

Their message to blacks is "You can't make it on your own without our help even though every other minority group can".

Posted by: FairHavenResToo | March 26, 2009 9:00 AM

I must be missing something here and I'll admit I wasn't living in New Haven in 2003, but shouldn't those who scored highest be rewarded? Isn't this a test of ability and knowledge like an SAT or medical board examinations? Last I checked they didn't consider your race when they were grading those. This seems like such an insane argument for the City to make. I'm hoping that I'm missing some crucial detail to all of this nonsense.

Posted by: Wicked Lester | March 26, 2009 9:42 AM

A threat to "national security"? Such racist hysterics. The promotion of unqualified candidates is a threat to public safety. I don't want underachievers to be the ones sent out to save lives and property.

Posted by: robn | March 26, 2009 10:49 AM

I'm way for equal opportunity, but if my house is on fire I want the best qualified person to be directing the firefighters. Testing is the only really objective way to judge ones knowledge of firefighting. Subjective things like guts and leadership should come afterwards. Wouldn't it be better affirmative action if the city went the extra mile and provided educational resources to Black Firefighters before they take the test? Sort of like "give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime.

Posted by: HH | March 26, 2009 11:09 AM

Maybe there is more that isn't being reported, but:

IF YOU PASS THE TEST YOU'RE IN

IF YOU FAIL YOU'RE OUT

That should be it...end of story.

If those are the rules then they should be followed...I don't care about the race of anyone who would save me or my family in a fire, but I DO want to know that they have the qualifications to do so.

Shame on all of you for making this a race issue.

Posted by: bfair | March 26, 2009 12:53 PM

Maybe it's time to look into the unchallenged practice of hiring/promoting people into positions soley on their ability to pass tests. Examples: Bush, Cheney,AIG, Wall Street,and on and on and on. My grandfather and his grandfather might have something to say about that since neither could read or write so they never had the opportunity to send America into a recession. Reading a book and having the ability to recall all that was read does not make you a pro at anything except memory recall.

Posted by: givemeabreak | March 26, 2009 1:10 PM

BFAIR, How would you promote these people throw there names in a hat and hope for the best! What would you say if all the names you pulled were whites and hispanics. I know what you would say! We have to find another way until all the names are african-americans

Posted by: gadda b. kiddin | March 26, 2009 1:39 PM

Conspicuous in its absence is any reference by Tinney to say that he actually failed the test and had it not been for a substantial curve on the 1997 Lieutenants test he would not have even been eligible for the Captains test in 2003, because he in fact failed the 1997 Lieutenants test.

Further, had it not been for Tinney and his small band of rogue fire department employees, crying to a couple of hooked-up vote getting politicians this whole mess would have been avoided and we would have the most qualified in position right now, serving the best interest of the community and firefighter safety.

Yet Tinney has the gall in a post 9/11 world, to say that diversity is a National Security issue?

Please ask the surviving victims of the Pentagon attacks, or the surviving victims of the MOST SUCCESSFUL rescue effort ever undertaken at the World Trade Center, if they would have wanted a failure of a fire officer managing that operation.

We should all be thankful to the New Haven 20 for protecting our National Security by fighting to ensure the most qualified fire officers get promoted. God Bless the New Haven 20.

Posted by: Wicked Lester | March 26, 2009 2:59 PM

No surprise that Bfair extolls the virtue of illiteracy.

Posted by: Common Sense | March 26, 2009 4:19 PM

When are we going to hear from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? They seem to be the only two brilliant guys missing from the press conference. You can file all the briefs in the world but in the end "Common Sense" should prevail. The New Haven 20 are seeking their Civil Rights against an Un-Civil Service in the City of New Haven.

Posted by: Speaking OUT | March 26, 2009 5:50 PM

This was a promotional test; correct? These candidates would be supervising others; correct?

If the answer to those two questions are affirmative than I only have one conclusion.

If my house/business was on fire, the person supervising the other firefighters better know his/her stuff. I don't give a rat's a** what race, sexual orientation, or sex the superisor(s) are. They better know how to supervise, instruct, command, and pass a test on how to do it.

If you can't pass a test to supervise your subordinates on thier job; then you don't need to be supervising it. Period.

Posted by: Scott Hunter | March 26, 2009 8:47 PM

I agree that supervisors in an emergency should know their stuff cold. That being said, I've worked in emergency services and know that many people who score highest on exams are not necessarily the most effective leaders.

Perhaps at least everyone can agree that those with the greatest knowledge, skills and attitudes should receive promotions. The important question then is was this test a fair assessment of these qualities? Maybe it was, but more importantly, to paraphrase Pat Egan's concerns expressed in the article, why wasn't there an investigation to get to the bottom of what turned out to be a racially unequal promotions practice?

If there was a thorough investigation, I suspect we would find that the real causes are not within the fire department's traditional realm of control, and that the New Haven 20 is a late manifestation of a more systemic inequality, that is also manifest at a much younger age in the educational achievement gap that exists between races.

While I don't think that those deserving of promotions should be held back, it often bothers me in cases like these that people are not looking for root causes of the inequality that rightly makes both the disadvantaged and the advantaged so upset.

The fire department could have done something different. The exam results in 2003 should have been alarming to them not because they feared being sued, but because it was demonstrative of a greater inequality. Couldn't they have done something? What is their plan moving forward to improve diversity in their ranks? It IS their problem, just as it is all of our problem if, as Americans, we believe that all are all created equal.

Assuredly, we will continue to be upset and not really get anywhere if we only keep fighting over the late manifestations of a systemic inequality and not concern ourselves with the underlying causes.

Posted by: k | March 26, 2009 9:41 PM

Didnt anyone look at this test before it was given to make sure it was fair? If the answer is yes than where are they now to defend what they thought was fair.Let them explain why they thought it was fair.If all blacks passed and all whites failed would anyone be saying it wasnt fair then?And bfair please reply to what Bill said.I would like to know why all other minority groups make it on their own without having to fight and rally and complain.This is 2009 and there are many other minorities now and they seem to take care of themselves and their own and half of them just got to this country in the past 10 years.They are happy to be here,they dont have that life wasnt fair for my great great great grandparents so the world owes me attitude.

Posted by: Shreck | March 26, 2009 10:07 PM

Three weeks ago the results of the Fire Inspector tests were certified and guess what the results were. Two Hispanics and a White Firefighter were promoted. If you start breaking down the numbers Five whites and two Hispanics in the top seven spots. The first Black Firefighter to pass was in the eigth spot and this was a open book test. Hey Barbra Unfair did your grandfather take this test.

Posted by: Deuce | March 27, 2009 8:05 AM

K asks: "Didnt anyone look at this test before it was given to make sure it was fair?"

What exactly would be unfair about it? Is there a white and hispanic method of firefighting management as opposed to a black method?

Posted by: givemeabreak | March 27, 2009 8:16 AM

scott hunter, I think president Egan stated there should have been a validation study done on the test. Then President Egan questions why a validation study was not done. He just did not answer the question. Here is the answer the city did not do a validation study because the TEST WAS VALID!

Posted by: bfair | March 27, 2009 11:26 AM

I want to first acknowledge my fans . Thank you so much for adding me to your response. If I didn't hear from you I might begin to think that I what I have to say no longer matters. K: You nor Bill said anything deserving of response. It's the myiopic mindsets like his (and yours) that allows centuries of instituional racism to thrive, unchallenged in this country. wicked Lester: appropo name . Gimme: Scott Hunter was one of the few who had anything of substance to say. Shreck: No, my grandfather didn't have to take the test. Our people built this nation without having to pass a test and it took those who passed the tests to tear it down.

Posted by: nfjanette | March 27, 2009 1:43 PM

Scott Hunter offered some thoughtful comments on this situation:

Perhaps at least everyone can agree that those with the greatest knowledge, skills and attitudes should receive promotions. The important question then is was this test a fair assessment of these qualities? Maybe it was, but more importantly, to paraphrase Pat Egan's concerns expressed in the article, why wasn't there an investigation to get to the bottom of what turned out to be a racially unequal promotions practice?

Which, in turn, should lead to a discussion about exactly what "adjustments" are appropriate in our times for "racially unequal promotions practice"

If there was a thorough investigation, I suspect we would find that the real causes are not within the fire department's traditional realm of control, and that the New Haven 20 is a late manifestation of a more systemic inequality, that is also manifest at a much younger age in the educational achievement gap that exists between races.

That's the elephant in the room no one wants to discuss, and it may be an "inequality" that has less to do with the education system and more to do with the life circumstances of the students.

While I don't think that those deserving of promotions should be held back, it often bothers me in cases like these that people are not looking for root causes of the inequality that rightly makes both the disadvantaged and the advantaged so upset.

Rightly? That may depend upon perspective. We need to discuss how much "society" is responsible for the state of any race/culture group. For how long should African Americans be offered preferrential treatment, and has that treatment produced systemic change - for the better - over the course of the past few decades? Or, as some - even within that community - are suggesting, has such treatment created a stigmatized self-image for African Americans?

The fire department could have done something different. The exam results in 2003 should have been alarming to them not because they feared being sued, but because it was demonstrative of a greater inequality. Couldn't they have done something? What is their plan moving forward to improve diversity in their ranks? It IS their problem, just as it is all of our problem if, as Americans, we believe that all are all created equal.

What if we believe that all are created equal, but not all are raised with enough to eat, with a sense of respect for law and order instilled by a loving parent(s), and with the motivation to try hard to learn and study for opportunities such as the Fire department exams? How do we fix such amorphous issues? Where does our responsibility start and end for such a daunting task? I think there are things we can do tactically within the Fire department (such a creating optional study assistance sessions for anyone interested), but that larger issues are daunting.

Posted by: k | March 27, 2009 5:29 PM

NFJANNETE You ask how do we fix these problems? First people should have common sense and look around at their surroundings and ask themselves what their parents did wromg to put them in this situation,then make a promise to themselves that they will not follow that same path in life.Break the cycle!No respect for the law? It would only take a couple friends getting shot for me to have respect for the law.Motivation to learn and study?Well they cant say they cant afford school cause god knows since their parents ***** up school is a free ride.Shouldnt living in a project with cockroaches and filth motivation enough???????

Posted by: Fred | March 29, 2009 12:12 AM

Let me get this straight - we need to support discrimination in order to get rid of discrimination? Doing stuff like that used to be known as hypocrisy.

While we're at it, maybe we also need to get rid of racial discrimination in the NBA. Seems like there are too many African Americans in the NBA; let's file a lawsuit to get some more White, Asian and Hispanic folks in there to balance things out.

Posted by: JD | March 30, 2009 12:49 AM

If this test was so great, the City would probably have stuck to its guns. The city's legal people determined they were vulnerable to a lawsuit, and that means two things: not only that there was a big racial disparity in who passed the test, but ALSO, that the City couldn't defend the test as having a "business necessity" because they never bothered to validate that the test had any relationship to performance as a supervisor. The test may have been an off-the-shelf model, with lots of stuff irrelevant to New Haven (most of these firefighter tests are made for places like New York City).

I don't know enough details to know whether the City was right that it had made a big mistake by using this test. But what gets me is, none of the people writing irate comments attacking the City know enough details either. All of you just seem to assume that whatever the test was, it was fantastic, and how dare the City not certify the results! Well, maybe. Could be. But since nobody cites any evidence that this test was any good, I think a little skepticism would be in order. We just don't know.

Posted by: givemeabreak | March 30, 2009 8:23 AM

Jd, you are right you don't know enough about the details. The best thing for the city to have done was to do a validation study. If they did this they would have covered themselves against lawsuit from both sides. If the test was valid they could promote these fine young men without having to worry about a lawsuit. If the test was proved invalid they could have thrown the test out and the new haven 20 would be out of luck. I will say this JD you might want to brush up on this case before you start to make stupid comments on the NHI. To be fair to you JD, The case has been going on for five years and I could not expect you to know the whole record, I just wish people like you would take the time and read up on what happened to these poor guys, instead of just assuming that the city was right. As far as the test being an off shelf model, where would we pick up something like that? Kmart! The city spent 250,000 dollars for this test that is a pretty expensive offtheshelf model.

Posted by: concerned | March 31, 2009 5:04 PM

Common now, in the day this would have worked, but people have gotten smart about being afraid of this type of bullying.

Posted by: SWagner | April 3, 2009 10:04 PM

It is time we apply the principles defined in our constitution to racism. Every new immigrant group that has come to America has faced problems until they assimilate to the community. We are a melting pot and have been very successful at it. Only blacks seem to have difficulty with this process. The constitution provides for equal rights under the law and there is no room for reverse discrimination in this country. Each person has an obligation to succeed or fail based on merit and not the color of their skin or which hormones they have. The criteria for employment promotions, college entrance, and every other competition should be based on objective criteria.

Posted by: white guy | April 3, 2009 10:05 PM

yes

Posted by: Donna from Canada | April 21, 2009 12:09 AM

I didn't know a brain had a colour or race. I don't care what colour anybody is, if you exercise your brain you are able to compete. Colour or race has absolutely nothing to do with this. A test is a level playing field. Study and pass or don't study and don't pass. The black people here are insulting themselves because they are entirely as capable as anyone else of passing a test.Are they suggesting somehow that black people are less capable? That is ridiculous.

Posted by: Bo | June 22, 2009 2:21 PM

Had anyone considered that the alleged disparity may simply be a result of the fact that there were less african americans testing.

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if 100 people tested and out of that 100 only 10 were black that only approximately 10% of the highest scorers would be african american and not 50%?

So if they hired the top 20 people, 18 would be white, and 2 would be black. Would this prove that the test was partial? Of course not!

This disparity arguement is only valid if an equal number of every race was being tested to begin with...

Posted by: Estel Powell | June 29, 2009 11:16 PM

Supreme court favored the firemens argument 5-4. I've never heard of a case using the 14th amendment for a white person. Does anyone know if there are previous cases?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/29/connecticut-firefighters-vindicated-supreme-court-ruling/?test=latestnews