New Haven Independent

Posted by: lance | March 2, 2009 8:36 AM

that's it vic, stick it to the man! Seriously, it sounds like the city took steps to make the test fair, and the chips just fell the way they fell. Hire off the top of the list and be done with it. we are all supposed to be equal, so partial treatment in this era makes no sense.

and as far as the independent being afrocentric, I noticed there is only african american obits on here.

Posted by: Paul Bass | March 2, 2009 9:49 AM

Lance -- The reason for the predominance of African-American obits: We told every funeral home in town that we'd print obits for free. But they had to email them rather than fax them. (Budget issue.) The only homes that send us obits serve the black community. (We hadn't even approached them yet; they're both already set up to do a lot of computer services for clients.) You'd be surprised -- We've actually sat down with other funeral home owners and walked them through the process of sending email, and they either weren't interested or felt they couldn't. Anyway, we'd still love to receive and publish obits from all the homes.
-- Paul Bass

Posted by: Hood Rebel | March 2, 2009 10:42 AM

Unfortunately some folks believe that the ONLY intelligent dialogue to have on this topic, is to BASH a whole population of people by race.

Take the time to read the "disparate impact" Federal legislation on which the city, firefighters and supreme court are all focused

http://www.hr-guide.com/data/G702.htm

Posted by: nfjanette | March 2, 2009 11:43 AM

Karen Torre, lead attorney for the New Haven 20, declined to be interviewed for this article. She said she's busy preparing for the Supreme Court arguments. Besides, she said, she and her clients consider the Independent an "Afro-centric" news site with an "extreme left-wing agenda."

That "extreme" comment is completely out of line.

Posted by: Cheri | March 2, 2009 12:07 PM

I just read Carole Bass's reporting on this, and don't think there's anything "afro-centric" about it.

I also read Judge Jose Cabranes's opinion and the backround (available on-line). I agree with the "20" and will be very interested in hearing the outcome of SCOTUS next month.

Posted by: native new haven'r | March 2, 2009 12:46 PM

Bolton's spin does not disguise what the city did here, which was blatantly discriminate against whites and hispanics in order to appease Boise Kimber and his cronies. Kimber caused this whole fight and he's been shaking down city hall for race perks for decades..

Posted by: getta-clue | March 2, 2009 12:47 PM

Carol Bass and Bolton obviously don't know how to read a legal brief - the crux of this case is constitutional law, not Title VII law.

Posted by: one mans opinion | March 2, 2009 12:52 PM

Drew Days thinks this is a "poor vehicle" to settle an issue that is plaguing the civil service and causing racial disputes and taxpayers to spend billions on court fights all over the country?

Posted by: nuff said | March 2, 2009 1:05 PM

Of course Drew Days and  Bolton  (who came to New Haven corp. counsel's office from the NAACP) are disappointed the Supreme Court granted this case.  It threatens the end of the racial racketeering industry they've been gaming for decades.

Posted by: Walt | March 2, 2009 1:14 PM

The City's position is as racist as the Jim Crow laws.

Hopefully SCOTUS will agree.

Posted by: robn | March 2, 2009 1:29 PM

Why is that right wingers always love to label fact-reporting an "extreme left-wing agenda" and alo love to label the repoters as "liberal media"?

Posted by: Carole Bass | March 2, 2009 1:49 PM

Getta-Clue and friends,

The man's name is Bolden, not Bolton.

Posted by: Whodunit | March 2, 2009 1:59 PM

Bolden dismissed that argument as "speculative."
Of course he would say it is "speculative"--he doesn't want to tell the truth now, it would blow the City's whole case.

Bolden (pictured at the top of this story) called the suit "an attack on Title VII," a "wonderful" law that has helped fight employment discrimination for the past 45 years. It is a wonderful law, however it does not guarantee or "entitle" any particular race a job, only the possibility to attain it--with effort.
Notice how the only people interviewed, who are opposed to this entire case are African-American; there are no Hispanic, Asian, Native American, Inuit, Female, or Homosexuals--only African-Americans. Why is that?-- do they think the fire department is like welfare--a free ride. You have a job, be thankful of that, then study & retain all of the pertinent information when taking a "promotional exam"--not "entry level." I bet if you do that--you will get promoted along with your White, and Hispanic counter-parts. Why did Hispanics pass, but not Afr._Amer?--Test must have been weighted more towards Hispanics too--ya that's it.
Quit using excuses--you have to put in hard work and study time, and the rewards will come.

Posted by: Lowell | March 2, 2009 2:01 PM

ROBN - to answer your question: Because, at least in respect to the Independent, anyone with half a brain knows that it is virtually indistinguishable from PRAVDA and its owners are well known leftist activists. And no lawyer worth her salt would lend credibility to a socialist propaganda organ passing itself off as a "news" outlet by pretending otherwise.

Posted by: dont blamem | March 2, 2009 2:16 PM

I don't blame the firefighters' lawyer for refusing to talk to the Independent. Paul Bass never once mentioned, much less covered, this case in the five years it was fought out in the courts, even though the NH Register was headlining it the whole time. It was as if the case did not even exist and wasn't worth the Independent's attention. Instead, Bass devoted all his space to profiling the minority factions in the NHFD, especially the Firebirds, going so far as to headline the Firebirds' annual picnic while the real news outlets were headlining the New Haven 20's court case. Apparently, the Firebirds barbecuing at Lighthouse Point was more a news story to Bass than the NH20's petition to the highest court in the nation. Once the Supreme Court took the case, all of a sudden Bass wants to jump on the news bandwagon. The NH20's lawyer told him to take a hike - good for her. I read the real story at www.newhaven20.com

Posted by: Cheri | March 2, 2009 2:19 PM

I usually try to avoid any back and forth with commenters, but feel compelled to point out (again) that there was nothing about Ms. Bass's reporting here that could be reduced to the description "socialist propaganda organ." Take just one portion of her article:

"
"Painstaking" Fairness

According to the New Haven 20's brief, the fire department went to "extraordinary" lengths to put together a fair, race-neutral exam for aspiring lieutenants and captains. The city hired a professional testing firm, consulted with minority firefighters and officers, and undertook a "painstaking" analysis to make sure that questions measured actual knowledge and skills necessary for the supervisory jobs. Candidates studied for three months, some of them quitting second jobs so they could focus on preparing for this career opportunity.

(Click here to read that brief. Click here and scroll down to read amicus briefs filed in the case.)

Despite the efforts at race neutrality, black test-takers passed at about half the rate of white candidates. None scored high enough to make them eligible for immediate promotions. (Two Latino firefighters would have been among the first batch promoted.)"

Atty. Torre did not care to be interviewed. That's not the reporters fault. The article is entirely factual in nature.

Can we please be a little more careful with our outbursts?

Posted by: lance | March 2, 2009 2:26 PM

The advocate is extreme, the indy is merely left wing in my opinion. And it's BOLDEN, not BOLTON. And no, he wasn't a flaming knight, that was a different Bolden. Bolton is the dude from westville who made millions singing cover tunes. But just to add to the confusion, perhaps we can get vic to do a cover of "time, love and tenderness" and youtube it. At $275 an hour of course.

Thanks for the explanation on the obits Paul. I think if you can get full participation from the local funeral homes you might drive a lot of traffic to your site. there is really no clearing house for that info on the net.

And as far as the topic, Obama is president now. All bets should be off in terms of race based preference. the most qualified should be promoted. The english language is still the english language, 1 plus one still equals two, and the fire triangle still has the same three components regardless of skin color. whoever scores higher on the tests should be promoted, unless they are a known coward or something of the sort.

The elderly in new haven get their senior centers shut down but the city is willing to spend hundreds of thousands in an attempt to "stick it to the man" on the promotion issue? It ain't right.

Posted by: Hood Rebel | March 2, 2009 3:54 PM

Neither President Obama nor anyone else with common sense would suggest that, just because he was elected president, the residual effects from the ugliness of our history no longer exist effective January 20th 2009.

Posted by: City Hall Watch | March 2, 2009 4:12 PM

I think this is the perfect case in which to try both Title VII as well as the New Haven issue in particular. I've said it before. It's worth repeating again. In this day and age, it is stunning to read anyone advocating special testing or acceptance of lower standards or exuses for lower performance because of the color of one's skin. If the city's position was applied to our schools, we should have oral exams and other methods to test students on the CMT's which start this week, based on the color of their skin? If it's not acceptable in school, why should it be acceptable in the fire department?

If a white person made such comments in public, DeStefano would say that person is a hater.

I do think the mayor has got us over the legal barrel again and like so many other times, it has less to do with the issue being disputed than it does the politics behind the dispute. In this case, that disgusts me on both levels.

Posted by: Whodunit | March 2, 2009 5:34 PM

Hood Rebel--"Neither President Obama nor anyone else with common sense would suggest that, just because he was elected president, the residual effects from the ugliness of our history no longer exist effective January 20th 2009."
Your point would be what--the city is pro-minority and has proven that time & time again in the past 2 decades--are you insinuating that the City of New Haven's politicians are racist against African Americans. Please stop with these pointless One-liners that are only meant to distract and not add to anyone's point. It is only African Americans that are complaining--not any other minority group--WHY?
And don't try to tell everyone that racism is blowing flagrantly still, that is a bunch of BS--and yes, I think Obama being elected should open your ...eyes to the astonishing progress our country has made in 40 years.

Posted by: Hood Rebel | March 2, 2009 6:04 PM

To Whodunit.
So what if you disagree with my pointless one liners. Put up your own blog and then ban the comments that you don't like.

Posted by: Whodunit | March 2, 2009 8:17 PM

Not a matter of liking it or not. Your comment is like a baby crying wolf. Your statement holds no water, and is meant to be inflammatory only. The City of New Haven & Politicians are the #2 most pro-minority city in the US, only second to San Fran.--so by saying that this "ugliness" is prevalent, or even lingering moderately in New Haven, or anything to do with New Haven is an absolute joke. Test results have nothing to do with the atrocities done to African-Americans--they have to do with studying the "GIVEN MATERIAL," and taking a "race neutral," "job related," "FAIR & VALID" test. These repeated excuses for poor African-American results are tiring--this is the Northeast--the most liberal part of the country--get off your butt, study,and the promotions will come.

Posted by: Lowell | March 2, 2009 10:20 PM

ROBN - yes Carole Bass did a not-so-bad job of relaying the parties' legal positions but her own article indicates she did so after apparently being chastised by the firefighters' lawyer who refused to grant her an interview. So maybe that lawyer did some good by moving Bass to be more objective. I don't read the lawyer or his clients to be attacking Bass's article but merely giving a pre-article opinion about the ideological bent of the NHI - you can't deny it's a leftwing outfit and no one on the other side of the ideological fence is gonna trust them. But if you read the firefighters' supreme court brief, Bass did get it wrong - it is not about the civil rights statute so much as it is a case about the US constitution. As for the LOTS of media attention to this case, it doesn't seem like Bolden and the city have any support at all. All the public support seems solidly on the side of the firefighters, which says alot about how much hostility the public has for reverse discrimination. Nobody should be denied hire because of his race (or gender or whatever). That's something everyone agrees on. For blacks to claim that they were "discriminated" against merely because they failed to meet the job criteria (in a city which favors blacks no less) really makes them look like they're singing a tired old song that no one wants to listen to anymore.

Posted by: Hood Rebel | March 3, 2009 10:35 AM

To whodunit:
Your comments only reflect your own baby crying wolf and your own limited thinking and interpretation of my statements of this topic.
Good luck with taking thatto the Supreme Court.

Posted by: True New Havener | March 3, 2009 10:58 AM

Bolden lays out a very interesting argument -- that this case is not timely -- one I had not thought about before. It may actually win, which would be an entertaining outcome to say the least.

And Days makes a smart point, that this case is odd for the Supreme Court to take up because they can find for or against the city without actually addressing the most important underlying issues. Lawyers, at least the quality of Days, like for the Supreme Court to decide an issue once and for all. In fact that is what the Court is supposed to do and why it only takes up a small number of cases a year.

For those insinuating that the only reason that Days and Bolden care is because they are black, that's a pretty ignorant remark. Not just because the reverse can now be said about you, but because it misunderstands how our civil justice system works. It works because at its best, good lawyers thoroughly lay out the best arguments for their side based on an interpretation of the law. The Court then analyzes those interpretations and chooses among them. For this to work, both sides need smart, capable lawyers who make reasoned, effective arguments.

Days was Solicitor General of the United States under Clinton. This is legally the top lawyer representing the government's interest in the country, and the supervisor of all of the other such lawyers across the nation. Other than Supreme Court Justice, there is no higher honor for a lawyer. He is generally considered one of the best to have ever held that post and is widely believed to be one of the most significant Constitutional and civil rights scholars of our time. His opinion is sophisticated, intelligent and not worth critiquing if your basic legal knowledge is limited to reading the comments of this website and possibly the briefs of this case.

As to Bolden, you might not like his argument or his stance in this case, but I doubt seriously Torre was happy to learn he was hired by DeStefano to run the Corporation Counsel's office. While this case was handed to him fully formed (and a loss or victory cannot primarily be laid at his door step), the city has clearly gotten much smarter in the way it handles this case in the last couple of months since his arrival. His public comments and his explanation of the legal strategy are smart, clear, and balanced. Maybe that's because he is one of the top litigators in the country who has seen his share of controversial cases involving race in the past.

What's great about New Haven is that both Bolden and Days live here. These are two extremely well respected lawyers with impeccable resumes.

While I was not watching, did Paul and Carole Bass become "Afro-American" or for that matter did any of the other paid staff of this paper? I am not sure how Torre's concept of the NHI being "Afro-centric" even makes sense. Does Paul celebrate Kwanzaa? If anything this paper currently carries a distinctly anti-DeStefano bent and thus has covered this issue (and most others) in that light more than in a pro-black or pro-white perspective.

If Ms. Torre can find discrimination against white people in the NHI (face it that's her point) then maybe it's fair to say that Ms. Torre finds discrimination against white people in more places than your average rational person of any race.

Sometimes Ms. Torre when I want a chocolate ice cream cone, it's just because I like chocolate ice cream. My partner on the other hand likes vanilla. No racism against white people underlies my ice cream choice, or Carole Bass's reporting. For someone who fights so fervently for "color-blindness" your ability to see race everywhere is a bit odd. To say the least.

Posted by: Whodunit | March 3, 2009 2:41 PM

This is kind of ridiculous isn't it. If the little ole city of New Haven had just promoted the mixed race of firefighters, their would be no challenge to interpreting the Constitutional Law that was raped by the same city. Hood rebel, my thinking is far from limited, and your words speak volumes about what you expect as an African-American. This case is about denying any municipality a "RIGHT" to throw out Job Related, Race & Sex Neutral, Fair & Valid" test results. The City's Charter was ignored and violated as well as Constitutional Law. Lets face it, Liberals will never agree with most moderates & conservatives on this point. I hope the Supreme Court slams this city. It flagrant abuse of Federal & State Laws against employees both in the past & now is reprehensible. Throwing a promotional list out because one or two races did better than others is discrimination as well. Not "reverse discrimination"--"DISCRIMINATION." Race should play no part in making a list. If the results are not to one's liking, you modify the next test to try to include more races, you do not have --Do-Overs, unless you believe in "Free Handouts" to candidates who did not place well. Good Luck to the NH20.

Posted by: Black Man | March 3, 2009 3:27 PM

I almost hate to say it (I carry my 'race card' always at the ready when needed) but the city was wrong to not allow the test results lead to the promotions of the folks who passed... if in fact they made every reasonable effort to make the test fair and JOB related then it should count.

When the test was announced the black fighters group should have been hosting preparation sessions to help their members pass the test. Were they there?

Posted by: Seth | March 3, 2009 4:49 PM

New Haven residents should have priority over all candidates when it comes to civil service jobs. People who don't want to live here, should have a problem working here. If they don't have a problem working here, then they shouldn't have a problem with paying taxes for living elsewhere.

We are trying to build a community (at least I hope so), so if you are not of this community and you choose to work here you should be taxed.

As for people making statements that life in America is a level playing field. The Gov't should legalize what they're smoking and tax the hell out of it. Then there will be no deficit.

Posted by: hurtz | March 3, 2009 8:07 PM

to Whodunit:
I'm a liberal and I agree with you! But for different reasons. It is bad enough that people like you think that most people of color get to positions of authority or leadership because of affirmative action -- that we just aren't smart enough to achieve on our own. In case you are wondering I am Hispanic and have an Ivy League education -- and I earned my degrees -- they were not handed to me as gifts becuase I was Brown. The only thing people like me want to see is an even playing field becuase if we have that, we'll wipe the floor with the competition. Alas, we know there is no such thing as an even playing field so we continue to work, aspire and achieve knowling full well that at times we have to work harder just to show people around us we are as capable. Anyway, the city should have kept the original results becuase after all the steps they took to ensure a test that was race neutral, relevant, and so on, the results should speak for themselves. It just may be that the fact no blacks passed the exam may be attributable to the obvious: they didn't work as hard as those who did pass. So now, when a black or Hispanic passes the exam, it creates the impression that the test has been "dumbed down" to the point where "even they can pass". This is demeans and trivialzes the achievement of those individuals and will create a perception that their competence is suspect.

Posted by: Hood Rebel | March 3, 2009 8:14 PM

To Whodunit:
This case is about interpretation of the theory of disparate impact. Your overly simplistic biases and presumptions about who I am and what I expect as an African American speaks volumes about your own limited thinking.

Posted by: Lowell | March 4, 2009 10:19 AM

"True New Havener" sounds like a shill for whoever wrote the controversial ruling in this case that landed this issue on the national stage and at the US Supreme Court. The "ice cream" analogy is obviously the product of a flaky mind. But if "True New Havener" thinks Drew Days and city counsel Bolden are two of the best legal minds around, she/he must not get out much or venture far beyond New Haven's equally flaky liberal academic crowd. (Bolden could not even officially be appointed to his job under the city charter and had to be given a made-up title becuase he didn't meet the experience criteria for the job of corporation counsel) Bolden's previous experience was advocating for the rights (and ONLY the rights and interests) of African Americans. So to say that he may not be objective is a quite rational inference to make). As for the firefighters' lawyer, "True New Havener" makes the bizarre claim that this lawyer "sees race" everywhere and is supposed to be an advocate for color-blindness. Uh, excuse me "True New Havener", but was it not this lawyer's very position that the promotion selection process WAS race-blind, should have STAYED race-blind, but that race-mongering local power-brokers and a race-pandering mayor turned it INTO a race-obsessed process? If I understand the firefighters' point, it was that this whole fight started when politicians (and the endless trouble-making Firebirds)turned a neutral process into a race war. As for Bolden raising a "timeliness" issue, which "True New Havener" seems to relish as a new suprise defense to the case, "True New Havener", as the case with Bolden, is grasping at straws. Nice try.

Posted by: Walt | March 7, 2009 6:46 AM

As I see it the City's freezing of promotions has a major disparate effect on whites and hispanics.

--and a major disparate effect on firefighters who study and score well on tests deemed fair and pertinent.

Definite racial bias, but OK per DeStefano and his cohorts.

Hopefully SCOTUS will correct this mess.

Posted by: Whodunit | March 22, 2009 2:50 PM

Hey Hurtz--The biggesy minority excuse that there was not a level playing field was because the passing "Guys" had college experience AS, BS. How funny--People "like you" would be the reason other minorities would not have a level playing field--doesn't that insult you effort for your IVY league degree. I think it is hysterical you said those words in your post. If you ever get a chance--look up info on the guys who say the test was unfair--I bet you'll find they barely passed high school.

Posted by: Hood Rebel | March 22, 2009 6:12 PM

To Whodunit
Sounds like you need to get your self a couple of college degrees to better communicate your loopy thinking about the "biggest minority excuse."

And, while suggesting that you know that those who didn't pass the test barely completed high school---you might want to consider you OWN SAT score before going down that route!

Posted by: STYLENE | March 23, 2009 9:20 AM

LANCE. WHY DON'T YOU SEND IN SOME WHITE OBITS. IM SURE THE INDEPENDENT WILL POST THEM. ITS A MATTER OF WHO IS SENDING THEM IN, NOT RACE. IT'S REALLY NOT THAT DEEP.

[Editor's Note: We do welcome all obits, of New Haveners.]

Posted by: Whodunit | March 23, 2009 9:25 PM

Hood Rebel--Are you the brightest individual in the world? You try to knock my education and other things about me to because you dislike my opinion--typical Liberal--attack what you do not like, and proclaim all the wrongs done to you. As far as a degree, sorry, I already have one, and I'm not complaining about results, my job or making excuses for poor performance. Sorry, "Hood" I worked hard, and now enjoy what I worked hard to achieve. Nothing was given to me, unlike the world you would apparently like. Last time I checked, it is the African-Americans that are the "only ones" complaining about the test & results--why is that? No White, Hispanic, Women, etc.
Have fun in your excuse laiden world.

Posted by: Walt | April 18, 2009 9:03 AM

Sure the Basses and the Independent are ultra- liberal and heavily biases, but I would give them credit for trying to be somewhat neutral most times.

I objected recently when their headline called Glenn Beck supporters "wacko" when the actual article contained nothing of the sort.

On this one, the staff says the firefighters' argument is "compelling", a pretty nice admission from someone definitely afro - biased.

The libs do not often admit that the opposite view is "compelling" especially when they themselves are strongly touting pro-Afro racism.

Hopefully, SCOTUS will see the racism in the City position in this case, and maybe the Black firemen will start studying so that they may legitimately qualify for promotions in the future.

Posted by: what | April 22, 2009 10:54 AM

I am really trying to understand why people are posting comments like "Afro" to refer to black people. Or the lawayer saying "Afro-centric." What is that? Wow. I would have hoped that we had come farther than this.