New Haven Independent

Posted by: Cheri | April 17, 2009 11:54 AM

I think Paul summed it up nicely. While stating what are commonly held thoughts about affirmative action, he also made clear the twist in this case, which is that the City PRESUMED some sort of political backlash, and ditched the test results at the expense of those who tested well.
I'm still with the "20" on this all the way.
I wouldn't be surprised if more on the Court side the "20" than just the expected Alito, Scalia, Thomas, and Roberts...

Posted by: cedarhillresident | April 17, 2009 12:07 PM

Paul,
When ever the "New Haven 20" come up in conversation I always find it hard to talk about, because I understand both points of view. I think that you just summed it up perfectly. Thank you

Posted by: lance | April 17, 2009 12:15 PM

well, we know whose side farrakhan and obama is on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWxNeGOXSoA

Posted by: we need a new mayor | April 17, 2009 12:42 PM

Paul, I liked your comment. The problem with Affirmative Action is not that it's right or wrong, the real problem is how it is interpreted. Affirmative Action asks that all citizens be treated EQUALLY without regard of their race. But unfortunately, many--and the City of New Haven --interpret it as treating people DIFFERENTLY and FAVORABLY because of their race. To me that's a form of racism. I am Hispanic and I would not like to be treated differently and think (or have everyone else think) that I was accepted into a school or a job only because of my race and not because of my own merits and hard work.

Posted by: Doriss Day | April 17, 2009 1:04 PM

Very good analysis, Paul. Not bad at all. Also, thanks for covering the Emma Jones press conference last week. And the excellent coverage of the Clarence Willoughby trial, which I personally requested. My reaction to the Willoughby verdicts at ctnewsjunkie.

Posted by: robn | April 17, 2009 1:15 PM

AGREED Paul,

The issue is not the validity of affirmative action, the issue is the manner of its execution. Minority firefighters should be sought out and given access to good training materials for exams...not extra points on their exam results.

Posted by: fashizl | April 17, 2009 2:01 PM

I support the 20 www.newhaven20.com

God bless the 20 they wouldn't give up when the mayor and his henchmen, dubois-walton lived with tinney's nephew, tinneys sister on CSB, Kimber the felonious commish, burget the fired human resource director, ude the fired corp counsel, who's left. They are all gone or will be soon but the 20 are still here! God bless the 20.

Posted by: Moreorless | April 17, 2009 2:36 PM

I commend your interpretation of the case Mr. bass; however, some of your facts are wrong, or even already in practice.
Your statement about "NO" African Americans above the lower third is factually incorrect. #13, #14, #15 on the Lt.'s exam are African American--well above your bottom 1/3. Those 3 men would have been promoted had the list been certified--FACT. They were not the only Afr. Amer. above that level either.
As far as recruiting--The city has vigorously recruited for minorities in the past decade and a half--not only African Americans--a minority is anyone who is not a white male--you yourself are singling out one race to have an advantage over others, and that is not what affirmative action is about.
As far as schooling--New Haven has some of the best most modern schools in the state--The teachers are good, now you need to work on getting the parents of the punk kids to get on board so disruptions in classrooms can be erased. Several of the highest scorers on the test went to New Haven public schools, so it can't be the teachers and the schools now can it.
Hopefully the US Supreme Court will be just as disgusted with the actions of The Mayor and his cronies, as most of the general public already is.

Posted by: Common Sense | April 17, 2009 3:28 PM

Robn states "Minority firefighters should be sought out and given access to good training materials for exams...not extra points on their exam results."

All members of the New Haven Fire Department have access to good training materials for exams. It is all part of their job. Training and studying is an on going process to those men and women who want to move up the ladder under the Civil Service system when exams are held in the Lieutenant, Captain, Battalion Chief and Deputy Chief positions. Some of the firefighters and officers choose to not wait for the exams to be announced but keep up on a day to day basis enhancing their knowledge and sharpening their skills. Those are the kinds of leaders the taxpayers deserve and are paying for.

By not certifying the Lieutenant and Captain exam the city also cheated several well qualified minorities out of a promotion even thought they were not at the top of the list. MOREORLESS comments above hit the nail on the head. Too many people have their head in the sand and should get their facts straight. Nuff Said....

Posted by: Exiled Italian Shill | April 17, 2009 4:35 PM

The New Haven 20 say they want promotional testing without politics. How ironic!

None of the 20 would have been hired had it not been for politics. Each one of them had someone - an Alderman, the Mayor or friends of the Mayor and Aldermen - lobbying for them to get into the NHFD.

What wanton hubris is it to be for politics when it suits you and against politics when it doesn't suit you.

Posted by: Cheri | April 17, 2009 4:47 PM

Exiled Italian Shill:

Would you please clarify your comment? Would you please give some kind of proof or details of what you're claiming? Please? I'm really curious to understand exactly what you're claiming.

Thanks.

Posted by: shill iza wrong | April 17, 2009 5:56 PM

Shill, maybe so, but when does it end? The mayors system of jobs for votes was chastized by Judge Blu.

That is why the NHFD altered the last entrance exam.

This issue was race politics, quite different.

Posted by: Mikie | April 18, 2009 6:38 PM

Is there really anybody out there who wants to put in charge of first responders anyone who failed or scored very low on a competency exam??? (Other than the few leaders of the Firebirds that is, whose selfishness has wrecked the NHFD). This whining about "discrimination" decades ago is a red herring. It doesn't matter and plus, is that any reason to install someone in a position who doesn't know his stuff where he could possibly get somebody killed. ...

Posted by: citizen | April 20, 2009 9:59 AM

CHERI
That statement is true it is who you know not what you know

Posted by: luke | April 20, 2009 11:10 PM

I think its sad how this whole issue has turned into white vs black.How blacks are not as smart as whites.The truth is the highest scoring ff were the ones on squads.trucks,or eng companies that did very few runs.Thats becouse they had more time to study.Not only can they study in the firehouse when they are working ,but also study more hrs at home becouse they were better rested.while other ff on bussier companies are out doing calls,and their time at home is spent recouping .At the time these test were administered eng 11 ,10,6,and eng 4 were each doing over 5000 runs a year.squads 1 and 2 were barely breaking 1000 runs.Truck 1,2,3,4.and engines 17,16,8 and 15 were just as slow.The ff assigned to those companies had a clear advantage over the guys on the bussier company.While the guys from the bussier comp.were home resting from all the runs. THE better rested FF had more time to study.The majority of the white ffs who scored high on the test were from squads,trucks or eng 17.blacks and latino were not on the squads at the time as the chief only wanted"THE CREAM OF THE CROP".Meaning his friends .who happened to be all white.Dont get me wrong the chief has no problem screwing a white guy who is not in his network.I THINK ITS UNFURTUNATE THAT WHITE FF ARE BEING LABELED CHEATERS WHEN JUST AS MANY WHITES DID POORLY ON THE TEST.Not becouse they are dumb or did not study hard enough,but becouse they happened to be on some real busy company and were unable to put in the 10 to 12 hrs a day others did. I BELIEVE THIS IS THE THE REAL PROBLEM WITH OUR TESTING SYSTEM.WE ARE NOT PROMOTING THE BEST QUALIFIED ,JUST THE BETTER RESTED WHO HAVE MORE TIME TO STUDY.

Posted by: Confused | April 21, 2009 10:33 AM

Luke, I have one question for you, based on your theory (which by the way is way off) why did at least 2 of the guys that were assigned to Eng. 11 during this time score at the top of the list? Then you, too, I suppose, agree that they do in fact deserve their promotions, because obviously they put in heck of a lot of effort especially being sleep deprived and in a very busy firehouse, right? Glad we agree :) So, no they wouldn't be promoting the BEST RESTED, but based on your "theory" the most overworked/overtired AND MOST QUALIFIED!

Posted by: Deuce | April 21, 2009 12:41 PM

Every time the NHI runs a story on this issue, I ask the same questions and no one can answer them:

What questions were racially biased in the exam?

Is there a difference between black firefighting management methods and white/hispanic firefighting management methods?

No one answers because there are none.

Posted by: Cheri | April 21, 2009 3:11 PM

Deuce:

The Supreme Court may answer your questions.
Stay tuned.

Posted by: LUKE | April 22, 2009 12:06 AM

CONFUSED......I DO AGREE WITH U THAT THE 14 FF WHO PASSED THE TEST GET PROMOTED(14 IS THE # OF SPOTS OPEN AT THE TIME OF THE TEST).THEY STUDIED AND THEY SHOULD BE REWARDED.THEY EARNED THEIR PROMOTIONS.AS FOR ME BEING WAY OFF.TELL ME WHERE IAM WAY OFF.IS IT THAT ENG 11,4,6,10 WERE WAY BUSSIER THAN THE SQUADS,TRUCKS AND OTHER ENG COMPANIES? THAT MOST GUYS ON SQUADS WERE WHITE? OR THAT WHITES ALSO FAILED THE TEST? REMEMBER OUT OF THE NEW HAVEN 20 ,WIN OR LOOSE IN THE SUPREME COURT NOT ALL OF THEM WILL GET PROMOTED BECOUSE SOME DID NOT SCORE HIGH ENOUGH.IAM NOT SAYING THIS TO PUT WHITE FF DOWN .IAM MAKING A POINT THAT BLACKS IN THE DEPT WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES NOT TO SCORE HIGH ENOUGH TO GET PROMOTED.AS FOR THE GUYS IN SLOW HOUSES USUALLY DO BETTER ON PROMOTIONAL TEST.THAT IS TRUE LOOK AT THE LAST TEST NEW HAVEN CERTIFIED.14 FF CAME OUT OF ENG 11.WHICH AT THE TIME WAS THE SLOWEST HOUSE IN THE CITY.REGARDLES OF THE OUTCOME IAM GLAD IT WILL BE RESOLVE TOMORROW.THEN WE CAN PUT THIS ISSUE THAT HAS DIVIDED THE DEPT .BUT TO INSURE THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN AGAIN ,NHFD WILL HAVE TO MAKE A MAJOR OVEHAUL OF ITS TESTING PRACTICES.NHFD IS GOING TO ADOPT A SET OF BOOKS AND STUDY MATERIAL THAT CAN BE AVAILABLE FOR THOSE SEEKING PROMOTIONS.THE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE IN PLACE NOW ALLOWS THE FIRE CHIEF TO PICK WHATEVER BOOKS HE WANTS WETHER THEY ARE RELEVANT TO OUR DEPT OR NOT.GIVE US A LIST 3 MONTHS BEFORE THE TEST AND EXPECT US TO STUDY 10 TO 12 HRS A DAY.THEN TEST US WITH INFORMATION THATS ALL OVER THE PLACE ,AND CONTRADICTS OUR S.O.G'S.FOR EXAMPLE (NORMAN BOOK OF TACTICS STATES THAT IN HIGHRISE FIRES YOU NEED LIGHTWEIGHT 2 1/2"HOSE IN ORDER TO GET THE PROPER GPM.NHFD S.O.G'S SAYS FOR US TO CARRY ON OUR ENG 1 3/4"HOSE TO FIGHT HIGHRISE FIRES.THE BUILDING COSTRUCTION BOOK CLEARLY STATE THAT "THIS BOOK SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR PROMOTIONAL PURPOSE."FOR THE TEST IN QUESTION THE GUYS HAD TO STUDY CLARK BOOK.THIS BOOK IS SIMILAR TO NORMAN THE DIFFERENCE IS ALL THE INFORMAION IS HIS OPINION .AND THE NORMAN BOOK IS HIS .GUESS WHAT THEY ALSO CONTRADICT EACH OTHER.WE HAD TO STUDY THIS MATERIAL FOR 10 TO 12 HRS A DAY.SOMETHING IS REALLY SCREWWED UP WITH A FIRE DEPT TEST WHEN U HAVE TO STUDY HARDER FOR IT THAN THE STATE BAR EXAM.NOT BECOUSE THE MATERIAL IS DIFFICULT BUT BECOUSE THEY ONLY GIVE YOU 3 MONTHS TO STUDY MATERIAL THAT CONTRADICTS ITSELF.

Posted by: ME | April 22, 2009 9:13 PM

LUKE,
I'll tell you where you're wrong--I am #1 on the LT.'s test, and I was assigned to Eng. 6 the entire time of this testing process; as was, #3,#4 & #15 on the Lt.'s test. That's a fact--look it up, you know who I am. I can answer who the other 3 guys are too. Quit lying with your BS facts and if you're going to use facts do some research to make sure they are true.

Posted by: PPinLA | May 4, 2009 5:50 PM

I have read the arguments presented before the Supreme Court and various amicus briefs submitted prior to the hearing. The real issues do not seem to have been parsed out to my satisfaction. It is not that we shouldn't care about disparate impact; it is when we should be thinking about it. HR professionals should be very much familiar with the different types of selection tests and their potential for resulting in adverse impact on minority candidates. It would be malpractice not to consider the issue prior to adopting a test for use. If a test has the potential for adverse impact, it is incumbent on the organization to demonstrate that the test is job related (i.e., conduct a job analysis study and link the examination to the work) and consistent with a business necessity (e.g., feasibility of testing using another method and the validity of the test relative to other methods). Once the organization has selected a testing method and opened a competitive examination, candidates participate in good faith. To make a race-based decision once the results are in, simply because the racial profile of successful candidates is not to someone's liking is disparate treatment. Had the test resulted in individuals of the "right" racial profile receiving sufficiently high scores, it is clear that the results would have been certified.

Posted by: Sara | June 29, 2009 12:08 PM

I don to believe in race based hiring practices. I do not buy the idea that although discrimination against minorities occured in the distant past, that it justifies denying civil rights and equal rights to a new group today.

The history of the past three or four decades has been extreme reverse discrimination. This has harmed innocent white people because of their race, in payment for discrimination against minorities they never committed. I don't believe in whole race guilt and whole race innocence.

It is time for racism to stop in all it's colors and all it's excuses. There is a good chance the minority managers who argued to violate the rights of the white fire firefighters are themselves, racists. They should be fired.

Posted by: GINO MARTIN | June 29, 2009 6:37 PM

RIGHT ON FOR THE DESERVING 20. THESE GUYS REALLY DESERVE THE PROMOTION. I AM SICK AND TIRED ABOUT ALL THESE RACIAL SUPPOSEDLY INEQUALITIES.. INSTEAD OF THEM FIGHTING FOR WHAT THEY CALL INJUSTICES, THEY NEED TO GET THERE ACTS TOGETHER, GO TO SCHOOL MORE, AND HAVE THERE FAMILIES BRING THEM UP TO BE FAIR NOT USING THE RACE CARD. WAITE: JESSIE JACKSON, AND AL SHARPTON WILL BE INTERVIEWING THEM WHEN HE IS ALL DONE STARTING TROUBLE FOR MICHAEL JACKSON AND THE AUTOPSY. THE NEXT THINK YOUR GOING TO HEAR IS THAT THE FATHER WITH SUPPORT OF THE "LOSER JESSIE JACKSON" WILL BE SUING THE DOCTOR FOR MALPRACTICE AND WITH THAT MONEY WILL PAY OFF SOME OF MICHAEL JACKSON'S BILLS....