New Haven Independent

Posted by: anon | April 29, 2009 4:23 PM

It's too bad that there will be no retail in the building. Even though hundreds of New Haveners came out to public meetings to try to request it.

Add that to the fact that the parking garage facade on Crown Street will be tremendously ugly, and we've just paved the way for the State of Connecticut to create yet another "dead zone" in the heart of Downtown.

Congrats!

Posted by: Our Town | April 29, 2009 5:18 PM

Can't believe I agree with the ANON, but this is a mistake. All traffic, no economic benefit.

Posted by: Evelyn Gard | April 29, 2009 5:47 PM

Gateway Community College faculty, staff and students are very excited to see the realization of this long-awaited milestone.

This building will be anything but ugly. In keeping with the building's LEED Gold standard environmental designation, the parking garage facade on Crown St. will be covered by thick, climbing vines. It will not be all brick and mortar. While we will not house retail stores, we will house a three-story library, a cafe, daycare center, bookstore and a branch of the Hill Health Center and we will bring with us many new customers for the retail establishments already in existence.
Want to know more? Visit www.gwcc.commnet.edu

Posted by: Charlie O'Keefe | April 29, 2009 7:27 PM

Not too far back this was tax generating property. There was a Macys department store on the site and other retailers. I am stunned at the stupidity of Mayor DeStefano and his staff in turning prime business property to a tax exempt college.

I only wish there was a challenger or two on the horizon for the primary. My wallet has been emptied subsidizing stupidity. I am so sorry the voters of Connecticut are smart. If they were less astute DeStefano would be Governor and doing less damage to this city.

Posted by: norton street | April 29, 2009 8:20 PM

"The new Gateway Community College WILL BE A MODEL FOR THE NATION..."

is that some kind of sick joke? Those words should never be uttered again when speaking of a New Haven project.

The greenest, most sustainable, cheapest, and smartest type of building is one that utilizes what is already on the site. Bulldozing and rebuilding from scratch entails dismantling a structure, trucking away the debris and bringing in new materials. That is the antithesis of green, to look at the final product and say, "its green!" is moronic. The process and then the final product are what counts. So much resources, materials, time, money, etc goes into bulldozing and rebuilding, when what we should be doing is much cheaper, easier and, most likely, better, which is repairing, improving and real sustaining (as in keeping what is there there).

This is a small New England city, divide up these huge lots into much smaller parcels and sell to different developers, reserve a small parcel in the center of the site, or on a corner for a park or plaza. When things are set up this way, much more detailed, modest, and meaningful places arise. Maybe no one remembers the name of the architect who does the narrow 3 story mixed use apartment building, but a long term resident is more likely to be living there where recreation and shopping is within the block, then in the bachelor pad at 360 state where after 3 years of taking an elevator up 10 floors, the person would rather move out to the suburbs to raise a family.

The school would have been better placed in the area between the train state and Sargent Drive, that area needs to be much denser.

Posted by: City Hall Watch | April 29, 2009 9:05 PM

Another project downtown on potential Class A real estate, at the entrance to the city - that will generate ZERO taxes. Brillant.

Posted by: robn | April 29, 2009 10:38 PM

maybe a litle bit offbeat...but since I was a kid I've always liked the rudolph garage...reminds me of a roman aquaduct....and the board formed concrete is kind-of a laborious art that came and went in the 50's - 60's... I haven't really seen the gateway design, but if I was the architect I'd make some courtyard space betweeen the college and the garage so the facade could be appreciated and light could get into both buildings. church st is plenty wide so it seems like there should be no worry about being too tight up against it.

Posted by: 10% | April 30, 2009 7:22 AM

wow,I went to gateway, and now I am a busboy, thanks. I have to go clean a table now.

Posted by: anon | April 30, 2009 8:39 AM

Because of the drop in material prices, the building is going to cost less than originally projected. Can the State use the savings to fund a viable mass transit, biking and walking plan so that students can actually get to school?

I know the well-paid state bureaucrats don't realize this, but most college students (and potential college students, e.g., the large proportion of the under-25 population living in poverty) these days have trouble affording a private vehicle.

Posted by: jawbone | April 30, 2009 8:56 AM

Robn,
Spoiler alert: the new Gateway looks A LOT like the new Coop high school design. Strangely so.

My opinion here...I think everyone needs to realize that we are living in a different economy now. Even as American people are beginning to finally reinhabit urban downtowns, I think we will also discover that we simply don't need huge parcels of Class A real estate for retail and business purposes. I understand the loss of tax renenue, but I, for one, have spent almost 20 years here looking at huge vacant lots downtown. I'm glad they are being used for something positive. I support the placement of COOP High School and Gateway downtown.

Further, I disagree with Norton Street's assumption that it is always cheaper to reuse an existing building. I like the idea but this is simply not the case. Quite often is it prohibitively expensive to reuse a building once all of the hazardous materials are remeadiated in the building and all of the building systems such as heating, cooling, waterproofing, windows and doors are completely replaced. At every turn, unknown added costs can crop up when dealing with existing buildings. Not to mention the long-term life cycle savings that can be realized with LEED certified buildings. LEED is simply not up to speed (yet) with regards to existing buildings and historic preservation.

Posted by: Bruce | April 30, 2009 9:40 AM

Charlie,

This move will also allow the former location on Long Wharf to become a tax-generating property. It's a great location -- right at the intersection of two major highways and a 1/2 mile from the train. I can see another big box retailer fitting nicely in there to compliment Ikea.

At first glance, i does seem like a waste to give up downtown real estate, but that site has been vacant for decades and there are still plenty of available locations for downtown development. This is really no net loss.

I used to share your opinion, but I have changed my mind and I think it's a great location, especially for the students who will actually have something to do between classes.

Posted by: City Hall Watch | April 30, 2009 10:09 AM

[Gateway's] clientele is not likely to be walking around spending much money at the restaurants and boutiques - they may patronize the drug store. There is will be near zero economic impact. Nice try though.

Posted by: robn | April 30, 2009 10:13 AM

Institutions evolve over time. Its possible that Gateway might evolve into a more traditional learning institution with student housing downtown...and even if it doesn't, surely it will attract some who would rather live downtown than commute. In any event, even small pulses of critical mass...people on the street for lunch and dinners, will be good for downtown retailers and make the place feel more secure.

Posted by: Tony Bialecki | April 30, 2009 10:46 AM

The parcels have not been "tax producing" for almost 14 years - Macy went bankrupt in 1995 and the Malley building many years prior to that. They were cheap big box retail filled with hazardous materials - after the asbestos and other hazardous materials were removed almost all the concrete walls and floors were crushed and recycled into the site were it sits now for reuse and all the steel was recycled. The buildings were marketed for ten years with lots of lookers but no takers - its a bit simplistic to assume that all built buildings, especially cheap big box buildings from the 60's redevelopment days can be salvaged and reused. The college will pay a PILOT approx a million a year and employ hundreds of faculty and staff who generate a payroll of over $21 million, many of whom will end up living and shopping downtown. I think its a bit naive to think that 6,000 students most who live and work in New Haven and surrounding suburbs won't have an economic impact on the downtown - most businesses I've talked with look forward to the day it opens. Every development in the downtown cannot be high end condos, apartments and restaurants especially as the plan is to expand the "downtown" directly adjacent to this site towards the train station and harbor in part by filling in RT34 East. Institutions of higher learning especially a school like Gateway deserve a prime spot in our community - these are one of the most important change agents in our society today. The education and health care sectors are New Haven's biggest economic drivers and the programs at Gateway are important to the local and regional economy. As to the street level activity, yes retail would have been better but while it won't include another Starbucks the college has focused all of its public uses on the street level and being a "community " college these uses are for the students and public including book stores, business assistance center, art gallery, the culinary arts restaurant, the cafeteria, the library and the storefront bikestorage area. More important though is these spaces and the rest of the facility are where our downtown restaurant sector will gets trained staff from and our medical sector will get nurses and tech assistants from and the research labs will get lab techs from and the list goes on. New Haven is clearly the most livable big city in the state and its not been by accident - the increased downtown residential, the movie theatres, the restaurants, active neighborhood commercial districts like Grand Avenue and Westville, reclaiming polluted vacant industrial land on River Street, the new Hope XI communities like Montery Place and Quinnipiac are all part of what make a great community and the new Gateway College is one more important piece of New Haven.

Posted by: jawbone | April 30, 2009 10:54 AM

City Hall Watch.
Yes, Gateway's clientele will probably not be spending a lot of time at Barcelona sipping Rioja wine, but there a quite a few more opportunities to spend in that area of downtown than just the drug store. Off the top of my head...Starbucks, numerous delis (Vito's and Ninth Sqaure Market & Deli on Orange), Dunkin Donuts, Katz's under the garage, Critereon. Downtown isn't just upscale restaurants and boutiques as you seem to suggest.

Every little bit helps. As Robn seems to suggest, maybe some enterprising person will open a diner in that area.

Posted by: anon | April 30, 2009 11:07 AM

Good response from Tony. The city did a great job communicating the city's concerns to the DPW and college bureaucrats, even though in the end they were steamrolled by the State on most aspects.

As to whether the lack of retail is a fatal flaw that will make the entire building a "dead zone", killing downtown for generations to come, the jury will be out until after the building opens. I don't think that a storefront bikestorage area for students counts as a retail/public use, but we'll see.

If the other recommendation made by the college and the community is implemented -- i.e., narrowing Church Street so that it is a pleasant place to be, rather than a highway -- perhaps retail concessions can be incorporated on the sidewalk. If you brought Church Street down to two lanes, you could build a little cafe booth and set tables out for people to eat and watch the students go by.

By creating a pleasant place, the city might be able to encourage some of those thousands of students and professors to stay around a bit longer and perhaps spend some money and support a few jobs in New Haven.

Posted by: norton street | April 30, 2009 12:13 PM

either i forgot or it wasnt posted but i was referring to sites like this:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Crown+St,+New+Haven,+New+Haven,+Connecticut&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.222969,114.257812&ie=UTF8&cd=6&geocode=FaRHdgIdqC6n-w&split=0&ll=41.30378,-72.924381&spn=0.005988,0.013947&t=h&z=17&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=41.303737,-72.924289&panoid=z5YrzwTSQwcQ9oJrfyYG-g&cbp=12,258.1615384615384,,0,-18.746153846153838

chances are these will be torn down and replaced with something 360 state-ish.

Posted by: Steve Ross, Human | April 30, 2009 12:24 PM

I look forward to vines on buildings. Also, CHW, can you be more overwrought, please?

Posted by: Our Town | April 30, 2009 12:53 PM

Tony B...

a. please provide the present resident distribution of students attending Gateway, and,

b. please describe how anyone is going to get near the site once you expand "downtown" "by filling in RT 34 East." ...and please don't say by bus and bike.

Posted by: robn | April 30, 2009 12:57 PM

Retail on the ground floor isn't really important in a town with a bunch of downtown retail space is already available and active. Whats important is that the ground floor isn't opaque and lifeless. It can be activated with classroom and library functions...day and evening activities.

Posted by: anon | April 30, 2009 2:47 PM

Robn, let's hope you are correct! But unfortunately your comment doesn't jive with the opinions expressed by virtually everyone in the city (including every city official themselves!) on the need for retail in those locations. The state and the college should be ashamed of themselves for not listening to the community's basic needs - especially considering that this is a community college.

Posted by: City Hall Watch | April 30, 2009 3:51 PM

Steve Ross:
Be more overwrought? Sure I can but I'm not overwrought at all. I'm just pointing out that yet again, City Hall puts non-taxpaying, institutional development on prime real estate. A million in PILOT is less than 20% of what the property tax bill should be based on $147 million construction/value. It wasn't so long ago, Kelly Murphy was reporting that all kinds of folks were calling us; New Haven was in high demand. Was that true?

Posted by: jawbone | April 30, 2009 4:11 PM

The College St. retail space on the ground floor of the new COOP High School has not yet found a tenant, to my knowledge.
St. Thomas More had to build retail space for Yale as part of their bargain to expand on Park St. 2 years later, still no tenant.

Posted by: anon | April 30, 2009 4:23 PM

City Hall, whether or not that was true then, it will certainly be true over the next 10-20 years, as development is re-centered into cities located in transit-rich corridors, like New Haven.

This property is maybe a loss, but there will be plenty of other places in New Haven to build high-density, tax producing properties over time, like the State Street corridor's empty lots for example, or the Coliseum Site. In the end, filling this empty space with a college was probably a good move from a strict land-use point of view, especially since there were no firm commitments from developers on the horizon (e.g., Xerox wasn't proposing a new corporate HQ on the site, and at the time there weren't any high-rise condo hotel developers with realistic plans -- look what happened to "College Square").

A bigger concern here has to do with the "dead zone" that the state created by not allowing retail, and that "dead zone"s impact on all surrounding property values. The dead zone could have a negative impact on hundreds of surrounding properties, limiting New Haven's overall tax revenue for generations to come.

Posted by: Evelyn Gard | April 30, 2009 5:14 PM

In response to City Hall Watch's post:

According to the most recent socioeconomic impact study, Gateway puts about $390 million back into the regional economy each year.

The misconception that Gateway students won't access the retail establishements once they're in better proximity is unsupported. Perhaps it will comfort those concerned to know that the average Gateway student is 28 years old, employed and lives in the Greater New Haven region.

The college attracts students from across the state, but about 75% come from the Greater New Haven region including Bethany(.5%); Branford(4.2%); East Haven(6.4%); Guilford(2%); Hamden(11.0%); Madison(1%); New Haven(27%); North Branford(2.3%); North Haven(4%); Orange(2%); West Haven(14%); and Woodbridge(0.7%)

Our 'clientelle' is made up of highly motivated, hard working and ambitious individuals who spend their free time in pursuit of an education and self-improvement.

Perhaps a visit to the existing Gateway campus any evening between 5pm and 10pm (because they work during the day) would be in order. That way you can see for yourself. I can be reached through the website and would be happy to show introduce you to your new neighbors.

Posted by: anon | May 1, 2009 11:00 AM

Jawbone, do you really think that those retail spaces will always be empty? Co-op just opened. Would you prefer a blank glass wall, like what Gateway will have for several blocks through the heart of our Downtown, for the next fifty years? Even well after Church Street is converted into a two-way main street in 2012 and eventually connects to a walkable neighborhood all the way down to Union Station?

Posted by: jawbone | May 1, 2009 12:04 PM

Anon,
No, of course I would not prefer a blank glass wall instead of retail. I was just making an observation.
I have lived and worked in downtown New Haven for almost 20 years and I can tell you that certain storefront locations have been empty the entire time. It happens for a number of reasons. I think that my point is that throwing retail in on the street level is not the panacea that people think it is.
My sense is that the entire area around the Gateway block will be pretty active into the evening each night and that is a good thing.

Posted by: fedupwithliberals | May 2, 2009 5:35 PM

EVELYN GARD

"According to the most recent socioeconomic impact study, Gateway puts about $390 million back into the regional economy each year"

Just how do you figure that one out?

Posted by: J Abdenour | May 3, 2009 2:08 PM

Class A Real Estate? Macy's and Malley's??? Who's kidding who here?? These huge parcels have been a Class A Eyesore for decades, even when they were occupied. That whole region of downtown was horrible to look at, desolate, dangerous, and depressing. Now that the Coliseum, Macy's and Malley's are all gone, we at least have a chance to build something that won't give viewers a headache.
And who cares if it's chock full of retail? If the current Great Recession has proved anything, it's that this country already has way too much retail space. Let the Post Road in Orange have the empty storefronts. New Haven can get another recession-proof educational tenant. Sure, it won't directly help the tax base, but all that new pedestrian traffic has to be a boon for current and future merchants on Crown St, High St, George, and all the other adjacent areas.
I think it's brilliant.

Posted by: John G | May 3, 2009 11:58 PM

Putting a community college in a location that is prime real estate in the heart of the city is a really stupid idea. New Haven needs people spending money in the city, especially in the downtown area. A community college will attract students who have very little money and are just starting out in their lives. In my opinion, put a business there that would benefit from its location. A community college could easily be located on the outskirts of town and be just as successful.

Upscale retail would have been a much better option for such highly valued property. All the city personel who supported this development should be fired. Thankfully, us people in the suburbs don't have to put up these shenanigans. I feel sorry for you New Haven people who pay such high taxes and get nothing in return from the clowns you elect into office.