New Haven Independent

Posted by: Fed-up | June 5, 2009 12:17 PM

Id this could only bring King Johnny down...

Posted by: milly | June 5, 2009 12:40 PM

I think they should do away with affirmative action...and the Mayor did his damage already...thats why he is backing away from reporters...

Posted by: No win situation | June 5, 2009 2:17 PM

The city was in a lose-lose situation with this. No matter what happened, they would have been sued by the other side.

Posted by: lawyer | June 5, 2009 5:06 PM

Ricci is great news for plaintiffs' lawyers everywhere.

If the Ricci plaintiffs win, it is a full employment for plaintiffs' lawyers all over the country. From now on, every time a city uses a test that has the effect of blocking out some racial group (by a 4/5 or greater margin), we get clients. If the city certifies the test results, then of course we can bring a lawsuit on behalf of the blacks or whichever group got shut out. That's well-established law. And now, after Ricci, if cities try to throw out their test results to avoid our first lawsuit, we can just pick up the phone and find some disgruntled plaintiffs who did well on the test like Ricci, and use THEM to bring a lawsuit! Either way, plaintiffs win, the city loses, and plaintiffs' lawyers rake in the cash.

And amazingly, it is activist conservative judges who are handing plaintiffs' lawyers this bonanza.

Posted by: blue dog democrat | June 5, 2009 6:35 PM

LAWYER:
You are presupposing that Title VII will still be in full force & effect. Its about time that it was put in storage and merit-based promotions returned.

Of course since the current administration thinks that no one is responsible for anything that doesn't work out as perfectly as they wished, and anyone successful is probably to blame for the others' failures, you are probably right that only Plaintiffs' lawyers will benefit.

Posted by: lance | June 5, 2009 6:54 PM

i'd like to know how the above poster comes to the conclusion offered in the last sentence of the post.

Posted by: Common Sense | June 5, 2009 10:31 PM

Lawyer remarks (I doubt he is a Lawyer) "From now on, every time a city uses a test that has the effect of blocking out some racial group (by a 4/5 or greater margin), we get clients. If the city certifies the test results..."

The test is not what blocks out the racial group or any other person but the failure of the candidates to prepare and study for the test. There will always be winners and losers. All the candidates in the New Haven Fire Department taking the Lieutenant and Captain exam were certified firefighters. There was no bias in the exam. You have to do your homework to succeed just like in high school and college.

Perhaps "Lawyer" is someone who is known in the fire service as a "Firehouse Lawyer". All talk and no action.

Posted by: Cap | June 5, 2009 10:53 PM

DeStefano should never have let Boise Kimber and Gary Tinney & Co. lead him by the nose like that in 2004 - for they ended up leading everyone all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. What happened to those firefighters is a disgrace that will forever mark DeStefano's political career. As for the "lawyer" above, he doesn't know what he is talking about. A ruling that says your exam scores, and not your race, is all that matters will in fact mean that lawyers will not be needed again - right now, the only reason they are needed is because of the race politics that has destroyed the civil service and the merit system.

Posted by: XXXX | June 6, 2009 4:36 PM

The latest video is great. Johnny Boy standing outside a laundrette coming over clean as clean. "It's just circumstances". Yeah, right. As the Mayor is known to micromanage everything in this city we can only speculate who created the circumstances.

Posted by: Recent yale law grad | June 7, 2009 5:48 PM

I know it's going to be hard for people who like Frank Ricci's case to admit this, but "Lawyer" above basically has it right. If and when Ricci wins, cities are going to get sued no matter what they do.

Title VII, the law for 45 years now, says you can't use a neutral test that has a disparate impact on any protected group (blacks, whites, women, men, etc). You may not like this law, but both Congress and the Supreme Court (even conservative justices) have repeatedly reaffirmed that this is the law. Google "Griggs v. Duke Power Company," the first disparate impact case, if you want to understand this law. Duke Power Company wanted to base promotions on an IQ test and a high school diploma requirement because it said this would improve the quality of its workforce; however, it was going to have the effect of blocking blacks from being promoted; and (here's the key) Duke Power Company could not show that there was a real "business necessity" for using these particular tests. So Duke lost. The test wasn't "biased" against blacks. But it was not justifiable as a business necessity, and it had a disparate impact, so Title VII nixed it.

Police Departments and Fire Departments today frequently face disparate impact lawsuits when they use promotions tests that have the effect of freezing out blacks, women (e.g. lifting strength tests, height and weight requirements), etc. Unless the department can justify the test in terms of "business necessity," they need to use some other test that doesn't have the disparate impact. That's the law.

So if Ricci wins, depending on exactly how he wins, probably we will start seeing lawsuits against cities from both sides: the groups who don't get promoted because of some test, and the groups who do well on the same test. The Supreme Court may find some way to avoid this mess, but the likeliest outcome is massive lawsuits on all sides for years to come.

Posted by: Pedro d'Ibazo | June 8, 2009 11:57 PM

The Ricci case is a stain upon New Haven. Let's hope the Supreme Court overturns the Appeals court and restores fairness to our fire corps.

Posted by: Pedro d'Ibazo | June 9, 2009 12:00 AM

Hey "Recent Yale Grad",

Unlike Duke Power, the New Haven Fire Department has a "business necessity", indeed a "life and death necessity"--competent firefighters!

Posted by: Recent yls grad again | June 9, 2009 12:01 PM

Hi Pedro D'Ibazo.

Sure, if New Haven could show that using this particular test was a business necessity or a "life and death necessity," as you put it, then the city would certainly have been able to defeat any lawsuit by black firefighters. Apparently the City was concerned it wouldn't win. Why would that be? Well, for one thing, the City has used lots of other tests in the past, which produced the officers we have today. THOSE tests apparently didn't have a disparate impact - they were ok. (Unless you think the City should claim its current officer corps is incompetent?) So the City might have had a tricky time explaining why it was a "business necessity" to use this new test instead of the old ones. Also, from what I understand the City never did what's called a "validation" study to see if the new test was valid; that was probably a mistake. (Although some experts have since told New Haven that the new test would have failed in a validation study anyway...) Still, who knows - maybe you're right, and in this case, New Haven would have won if it had stuck to its guns and argued "business necessity" instead of backing off from the test. At this point, it doesn't really matter anymore.

If and when Ricci wins, it'll open the door to a huge wave of future lawsuits. From now on, whenever there's a test with a disparate racial impact, either the winners or the losers can sue, depending on what the city (or business) does with the test results. And if the city tries to settle with one side, and avoid an expensive court battle, that may mean a lawsuit from the other side! Attorney Karen Torre has probably generated a lot of future business for herself and her fellow plaintiffs' lawyers.

Posted by: badmer | June 9, 2009 2:53 PM

Ha! "Apparently the City was concerned it wouldn't win." Are you joking?

On the previous Lieutenants exam, there were 2 minorities in the top ten. If you compare apples to apples and look at those Lieutenants who then tested for captain, you will see that once again there were only 2 minorities in the top ten. They had no problem certifying the last Lietenant's exam despite the disparate impact issues. The cities only concern was to appease the African American voting block. If New Havens Community Organizers had been happy with the names of the Blacks and Hispanics that were going to get promoted off of these two exams, the civil service board would have been instructed to certify the exams. Unfortunatly, those minorities that passed and were in line for promotions just didn't have the political hooks required to get those exams certified.

The city hires from off a PASS/Fail list, NOT according to how well a person did on an exam. They then put them through an academy where the Director of training recomends that some not be allowed to graduate, but once again politicians step in and squash the termination. Now you put this group in a position to test for Lieutenant and none of them pass; So what does the city do? A curv was required in order to get some of them promoted, why does it come as a surprise to anyone that Blacks and Hispanics did so poorly on the exams in question here? And if Ricci losses, their answer to this problem is a more subjective exam; job performance, roll in the community, etc...

The problems that have us at the point we are now at go way beyond what the city is claiming to be a flawed test. You can start at the mayor hiring an incompotent Director of Education who is incapable of graduating kids in New haven able to score well on a Civil Service exam, then run right down an endless list of appointments that have all failed to do their job well.

Posted by: ltmike | June 10, 2009 11:25 AM

Same old same old and nothing changes. Even if the city loses (which it should), the brazen administration will not change it's way of infusing politics in running departments. This is a fact and no matter what the promotional process will be and no matter how assignments are made there will be forever favoritism and back door deals. Is it good for departments... NO, but the city does not care, and for that matter administrations don't either. Nobody really cares what moral might be and how that has an impact on performance, it SHOULD matter, but it really does not. If you have that Utopian viewpoint that good attendance, dotting the i's, honing your skills, and hard work pay off, you soon realize you are saddly mistaken and lose that love of the job. What message is sent to anyone taking civil service and promotional exams in New Haven with what the city has shown in throwing out a costly exam and having a case against them brough to the Supreme Court? To me it sends a clear message that the city has it's agendas, it will let too many people influence the running of departments, and ultimately form divides within. And realistically WILL your trash still be picked up, a fire engine arrive at your door, a cop respond, or a teacher give homework. Sure... BUT is it just being done? OR is it being done in a more enthusiastic and efficient manner? This case with the mayors name on it shows he would rather micromanage and just get by. He has never admitted to mistakes and never will. Same old same old!

Posted by: ted | June 29, 2009 11:15 AM

As far as I can tell Sonia Sotomayor made her decisions based on race. With this racist mindset, how can anyone trust her decision making process. Now we sit and watch out clueless senators ignore this and confirm her just to appease the voters. Why don't they do what's right like the Supreme Court?