New Haven Independent

Posted by: ROBN | August 19, 2009 3:22 PM

Good Move.

It makes perfect sense.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | August 19, 2009 3:30 PM

Totally the perfect set up. Bravo!!

Posted by: Lisa | August 19, 2009 3:32 PM

I think this is fantastic. I have known about them for about a yr now, after I photographed their Philly plant for a Newsweek article. I thought it was such a great idea, and wondered why a progressive place like NH wasn't yet taking part. My recycling can is always overfull and spilling out, and my huge trashcan is always practically empty. A trade-in for store credit system is great, because it will really encourage people who otherwise wouldn't bother or care. I hope people will support this idea.

Posted by: Nan Bartow | August 19, 2009 4:43 PM

I love the concept. I hope everyone participates with gusto.

Posted by: Tim | August 19, 2009 4:43 PM

This is great! Wish we had this in West Haven.

Posted by: Sceptic | August 19, 2009 4:54 PM

This sounds great on paper, but the cynic in me immediately imagines situations where people dump their own excess garbage next to someone else's bin to avoid a fine, and then steals someone's recyclables to boost their own bin's weight.

Posted by: streever | August 19, 2009 5:26 PM

"A punitive element may be added to those suggestions: As the city downsizes its garbage cans, it is considering making people pay when their trash exceeds the new cans' capacity. That part of the proposal has yet to be finalized, said Chief Administrative Officer Rob Smuts."

no

As I pointed out at the East Rock meeting that led to all this, that's an unfair tax on the poor.

Some people work too hard making a living to pay attention to the NHI & attend small meetings in East Rock. Unless the city is going to do a massive informational campaign, I oppose punitive measures.

Posted by: nfjanette | August 19, 2009 5:32 PM

Plans include switching to larger recycling bins and smaller general-trash bins. The plans largely implement reforms proposed by four aldermen two years ago.

A punitive element may be added to those suggestions: As the city downsizes its garbage cans, it is considering making people pay when their trash exceeds the new cans' capacity. That part of the proposal has yet to be finalized, said Chief Administrative Officer Rob Smuts.

The city should think more clearly about certain proposed elements of this plan, which has clearly been influenced by fairly radical thinking - and not the good kind, either. This needs to be a workable plan that will be accepted by residents - taxpayers who pay very high residential rates for these services already - and will not produce unwanted side effects.

Yes: the city should increase the size of the recycling bins, use bins with covers, offer incentives for compliance, and allow "single stream" recycling.

No: the city should not reduce the size of the trash bins (what about all of the existing bins?), the city should not attempt to penalize use of the trash bins - this will directly encourage people to illegally dump trash, a problem the city needs LESS of, not more.

Posted by: fingers | August 19, 2009 7:32 PM

Damn. I want one of these. My wife and I make only one small bin of trash every two weeks. We fill at least 2 green recycle bins every two weeks. Sometimes up to four recycle bins. (Wine is a food group, right?)

Posted by: cedarhillresident | August 19, 2009 7:48 PM

ok I read this to fast at work!!

NO!!!!!! This plan will be penalizing the poorer community's!!!! WTF!!!! You people do realize that in fair haven, Newhallville, cederhill and simmilar communitys some house holds have whole familys living in them!! Which means that the garbage coming out of those houses is going to be greater!! And those poor family's that have to live in that type of tight quarters because they can not afford other wise will be the ones you fine!! WTF!!!!! I like the idea of rewarding those who recycle and I believe that it will pay for itself BUT YOUR PLAN WILL PENALIZE POOR FAMILYS THAT HAVE TO LIVE TOGETHER..grandparts that have the children and there childrens children all living in the same dam apt!!! AND THIS WILL ENCOURAGE DUMPING!!!!!!!!!! WTF!!!

VERY BAD PLAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: cedarhillresident | August 19, 2009 7:49 PM

sorry one more thing!! That is really scummy!!!

Posted by: cedarhillresident | August 19, 2009 7:51 PM

last thing you are pitching this to people that have 2 to 4 people in a house hold!! You need to use the censeus to see how many people live in each house hold to make this work.... THIS IS OUT AND OUT PREJUDICE TO THE POOR!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: cedarhillresident | August 19, 2009 9:43 PM

Sorry one more...
Someone brought up the fact to me that fines are not mentioned my responce was...
Recyclebank in the UK and in Mass. Do fine
http://corporate.recyclebank.com/press/coverage/47-rewarding-recycling-
.

Personally I would benefit from this program, without a dought! but in england it is a nightmare with the fines and dumping

But as I investigate further because of that persons comment on my FB I may have to eat crow for the above comments. Thoroughly investigate a commpany before commenting and angry, really angry response. If you can 86 those comments for me paul that would be great if not then lession learned and thanks to that person on facebook for making me look beyond the england mess

Posted by: R. E. Lampago | August 19, 2009 11:18 PM

Har.
The recycling truck never even comes on my street. When I moved here I used to call Public Works every week, until the receptionist started laughing at me whenever I called. She would then transfer me to the recycling supervisor's line, where I would leave voicemail that was never ever ever returned. LCI says the recycling unit is too busy. My alder wrote a note to herself to look into it but never got back to me. So 100% of my recyclables go in the big blue can.

You wanna change recycling behavior? Start with the behavior of city employees and leadership. I haven't seen any sort of a commitment to recycling there. I truly doubt any of them give a ...whether I get paid to recycle or not.

Posted by: Ned | August 20, 2009 7:46 AM

"New Haven is now recycling only 10 percent of its trash." You must mean the 10 percent of the trash that makes it into a trash receptacle as opposed to being thrown out of car windows or dumped on the street or in the park...

Posted by: Bill | August 20, 2009 8:31 AM

Charging people to take away their trash will only encourage people to dump their garbage on the streets and elsewhere. I think New Haven has enough garbage and litter on it's streets without adding more.

Posted by: ROBN | August 20, 2009 9:06 AM

STREEVER AND CEDARHILL,

You guys have made two points which I think are wrong.

1) Its unfair to the poor because they won't know about it.
Not really...A law is only unfair to the uninformed and a reasonable public information campaign should be fair warning.

2) Its unfair to the poor because they have bigger families and produce more trash.
I'm not sure you guys are right about this. My gut reaction is that wealthier people buy more stuff and therefore produce more trash. I couldn't find correlative data on the US census site to support either position.

Posted by: cedarhillresident | August 20, 2009 9:13 AM

Hey pay back for the comment above... I was the only person on my street this morning whos garbage was not picked up!!!!!! Not that anyone answers the freaken phone at public works any more! Now what

Posted by: Walt | August 20, 2009 11:23 AM

It is amazing that no one other than I thinks that the fact that they can do all this, apparently at reasonable cost, is amazing.

Streever, Cedar Hall and others make good points re probable unfairness to the poor however, though at first I thought fines were appropriate. Maybe keep fines, but provide extra capacity to larger families upon request.

Without fines there will be slobs tossing out illegal stuff, as there are in my Hamden neighborhood.

Posted by: Been Called Worse | August 20, 2009 1:07 PM

I know for a fact this can work, as I see it daily.

After moving from new haven to nyc a little more than a year ago. Recycling is a requirement, we don't get "rewards" for recycling, we get fines if it is not done, and it is not single stream (Glass, plastics and metal in one container, cardboard packed flat in another, and non recyclables in a 3rd). This is mandatory citywide, for private homes as well as businesses.

I'm sure it took some time to get up and running and to make everyone aware of the initiative, but once in full-swing, I don't see why fines for violations would be egregious.

Posted by: FairHavenResToo | August 20, 2009 1:17 PM

I think this new program is a WONDERFUL idea and a long time in coming. I should also add that I live in the heart of Fair Haven, among many, many poor families / Section 8'ers, and the main problem is pure laziness, not ignorance. I am constantly sweeping up their litter and chiding their (too) many children to find a trash can, but they are simply too lazy to bother doing it. I scolded a 16 year-old-neighbor of mine for throwing her trash in my flowers and what did she do? She picked it up and dropped it across the street instead. They are too lazy to recycle as it is now, and throw EVERYTHING in the big blue wheeled bins, including food scraps and even their plants/weeds/sticks! This is why they're often overflowing long before trash day. Recycling #1-7 plastics as well as cardboard and mixed paper GREATLY reduces my trash, especially since I also do not throw food scraps in the trash, but consign them to my compost pile. We do need education in the form of brochures, flyers and the like, but I suspect that we'll discover a much greater problem in their laziness, not ignorance.

Posted by: streever | August 20, 2009 1:45 PM

Robn:
Fair enough--I didn't think of CHR's point (large families) but that is something to consider, if it's the poor or not--my house (a 3 unit) has on the first floor a family with a child, on the second floor a family with 2 children (parents & their sister) and despite the heavy recycling (we have 4 small bins we over-fill every week) we still do need the larger trash bin.

I'm also concerned with the wastefullness of throwing out the large trash bins.

I think this should be a phased-in program.

And, while I definitely agree that a law is a law and ignorance is no excuse, I'll just point to the impact this thinking has had on the poor & ethnic minorities all over the country--lots of people who could be working/productive sit in jail and cost this country a lot of money over very minor crimes.

I think it's important to address that type of consequence and make sure that we aren't over-punishing the poor. I think a phase-in of the new bins is a smart way to proceed, and we can switch them out with large bins as they become too old/damaged/etc. or as neighbors request new bins.

Combined with public education at schools, ward meetings, & even door to door in some neighborhoods, and I'd understand charging, but until the city really reaches out to the poorest neighborhoods, I can't help but think this will have a disproportionate impact.

I don't know you personally Robn, but I'm sure you have more leisure time than the working poor in the city, and a better educational background--I speculate that purely because you are on the NHI :) I don't see many people from low-income neighborhoods comment here...

Posted by: wtf!!! | August 20, 2009 8:44 PM

just because you are poor doesn't mean you have to live in filth, not recycle and not take care of the place where you live. if having a nice, clean place to live isn't incentive enough to recycle then i don't think financial compensation will do any good.

Posted by: abg | August 20, 2009 10:42 PM

I'm sorry but there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that a household which properly recycles (which SAVES THE CITY MONEY AND LOWERS EVERYONE'S TAXES) needs more than a 48 gallon trash container, no matter how large the family... other cities have done just fine with much more 'draconian' trash limitations. New Haven is 20 years behind the curve on this and just because we didn't start doing what we should have been doing 20 years ago doesn't mean we shouldn't start now. Do you want lower taxes? Go tell everyone on your block to get with the program.

Posted by: Been Called Worse | August 20, 2009 10:55 PM

Streever,

I agree with the phase-in and public awareness campaigns, but I disagree with this having a disproportionate impact on the poor and less educated. Its recycling, not rocket science. If someone is able to successfully acquire a driver's license, I think they are capable of differentiating between glass, plastic, metal, cardboard and putrescible waste.

When I relocated to nyc, all I recieved was this (sorry for the non-fanciful link, I'm off duty):

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dsny/downloads/pdf/contact/requests/decal_request/res_recy/rchecklist_english.pdf

And New Haven, planning single stream recycling, is even simpler. Your argument just hasn't convinced me that New Haven would have a large degree of disenfranchised recyclers.

Posted by: Edward_H | August 21, 2009 8:45 AM

streever

I don't see many people from low-income neighborhoods comment here...

How do you determine if a poster is from a low-income neighborhood or not?

Posted by: whatever | August 21, 2009 11:52 AM

Fines are not fair. What if you are a family that invites extended family over for the summer? What is your birthday party produces more garabge? I never dump recycles in my trash bin, yet 80% of the time it is full by trash day. Do not downsize the bins or fine for extra garbage.

Posted by: robn | August 21, 2009 12:36 PM

STREEVER,

It doesn't take any more time to throw stuff in a recycle bin or a compost heap instead of a trash bin.

So free time is irrelevant, but FYI I've been working 65-70 hour weeks for the last 20 years.

Posted by: Cordalie | August 21, 2009 1:28 PM

Thanks for all the comments. Please join us as MasterRecyclers. This program will need lots of educators and it is clear from your comments that you care.

Gee, the program was not fully explained in the Independent article. It is not "fines" for exceeding the capacity of the "smaller" trash bins. What it is, is a tipping fee. How it works is buy bags which include the tipping fee to use when one needs to exceed ones smaller bin capacity.

(Also, I think the large trash bins will become the recycling bins, in a recycling effort.)

I think you will find that poorer people tend to buy more inexpensive stuff, i.e. junk, so they trow more stuff out, but much of it can be recycled with care.

Posted by: whatever | August 21, 2009 1:53 PM

Cordalie,

I tipping fee is a fine by any other name. Who are you to determine what amount of garbage is acceptable? Does a family of 2 and a family of 10 produce the same level?

"Tipping fee", "fine", it's all the same thing, money out of my pocket. Others will just take their garbage and dump across the street from my home in an empty lot.

Posted by: whatever | August 21, 2009 1:55 PM

...And, what happens when you don't pay the "fine", oops, I mean "tipping fee"? Will they come and take my house, my first born child, my wife (well, they could have her)?

Posted by: DEZ | August 21, 2009 7:58 PM

Great idea that I support completely. As a resident of Fair Haven, I notice that few, very, very few people in the heart of Fair Haven proper recycle at all. My observation is that the farther from the river you go, the more trash and less, if any, recycling bins you see. I hope it is ignorance that keeps these people from performing a basic task on trash night. Maybe a financial incentive would help. Don't forget to make the incentive cover city businesses in every neighborhood.

Posted by: ron | August 22, 2009 7:15 AM

I'm wondering about all the bottles and cans that get removed from the recycling bins and get turned in for cash. I often see people going down the street looking for bottles with deposit. The removal of these items is helpful in at least 2 ways; removal of items that cost New Haven to recycle and add a little income to those in dire circumstances. Now those people will be stealing. The other problem I have is what to do with another big ugly plastic can that I have to store. The existing recycling bin can be stored on top of my big blue can or even put in my kitchen.

Posted by: nfjanette | August 23, 2009 6:06 PM

I'm sorry but there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that a household which properly recycles (which SAVES THE CITY MONEY AND LOWERS EVERYONE'S TAXES) needs more than a 48 gallon trash container, no matter how large the family...

Your option is based upon what data? Given that household size would seem to easily vary between one and eight people (and could be more), how can one smaller sized trash bin fit all situations?

other cities have done just fine with much more 'draconian' trash limitations.

I'd like to see the data that supports the "success" of such programs. I doubt it will easy to find all of the relevant data, because I suspect the only reports I will find are authored by the same folks that have potentially confused theory with reality in New Haven. People that I suspect tend to live in East Rock or Westville rather than the hill section, Newhallville or WEB. I wonder if anyone has truly tracked all of the concerns that I and others have raised, including container size calculation, compliance in urban areas, and unintended side effects (i.e. increased illegal trash dumping, increased trash strewn in neighborhoods, etc.)

New Haven is 20 years behind the curve on this and just because we didn't start doing what we should have been doing 20 years ago doesn't mean we shouldn't start now.

That is a classic straw man argument. I am not arguing New Haven should not adopt the positive aspects (the "carrot") of these proposals: larger recycling bins with covers and, perhaps most importantly, single stream recycling. Instead, I am questioning the "stick" side of the proposals.

Do you want lower taxes? Go tell everyone on your block to get with the program.

Unfortunately, neither you nor anyone else can believably promise such a connection. At best, it may decrease the rate of seemingly ever-increasing taxation in the city.

Posted by: New in New Haven | August 23, 2009 9:29 PM

Seattle actually fines residents if garbage me find recyclables in the trash. After 2 warnings, it's $50. Other municipalities in WA provide free collection if you use the smallest, "micro" trash cans. They then charge in increments of trash can size.

Posted by: robn | August 24, 2009 12:57 PM

On a planet with shrinking resources, producing unneccesary waste is bad behavior. Bad behavior should be corrected. If not by the "stick" then how?

Posted by: nfjanette | August 24, 2009 4:52 PM

On a planet with shrinking resources, producing unneccesary waste is bad behavior. Bad behavior should be corrected. If not by the "stick" then how?

Consider the following situation, which I believe will be common in our city:

A family of 5-10 people living in one apartment/house wants to be Good Earth citizens and recycle. Just kidding. Actually they barely know and don't care about the difference between the trash bin and the recycling bin. Each week, they fill up the new, smaller trash bin a few days before pickup. They don't control the amount of packaging of products from the store. They only know they don't want the garbage inside the house.

Now, our quiz. Where does the "extra" garbage generated from the family go over the next few days?

1. Into plastic bags that get placed on the ground outside until pickup day, and then get placed on the curb - all the while attracting animals including rodents which tear the bags apart to get food waste. Result: trash strewn everywhere in the yard and neighborhood and animals and rodents happy.

2. Into the nice big recycling bin.

3. Into Edgewood Park, dumped out of the back of a trunk after the first time the city "fines" them for excess garbage. At least the volunteers will have more work to do cleaning the West River again.

4. All of the above, and more.

Your answer is...?

Posted by: robn | August 24, 2009 7:56 PM

NFJ,

other potential answers...

5) The large family changes their behavior because
5a) they know that they will get fined for putting trash in a recycling bin.
5b) they knows they will get fined for having trash strewn about their yard
5c) they're too lazy to truck their trash over to Edgewood park and realize that managing waste is probably easier.

...i know...i'm living in a fantasy world...

Posted by: streever | August 25, 2009 6:15 PM

Been Called Worse/etc,

I own cloth bags. I buy groceries that don't come in packaging.

I see what passes for food in low income families--it's frequently what is available locally to them, which tends to be over-packaged and automatically put in free plastic bags.

I also lived in the Hill for 2.5 years and I saw how my neighbors shopped. I saw how many people lived in a household.

The reality is not everyone has the options I have. I respect that.

I understand that recycling is not rocket science, but that a fine will have an unequal impact.

Edward_H:
Mostly because A. I know many of the commentators. and B. because the commentators don't understand family size & economic realities in poor neighborhoods.

Posted by: streever | August 25, 2009 6:16 PM

and C. the percentage of low income people in this city who have reliable internet access is much lower than you may think.

Posted by: streever | August 25, 2009 6:21 PM

sorry for triple posting but this is totally accurate:
"3. Into Edgewood Park, dumped out of the back of a trunk after the first time the city "fines" them for excess garbage. At least the volunteers will have more work to do cleaning the West River again."

People already dump trash all over the public parks. I have personally picked up dozens of bags of household trash (not car trash but literally bags of trash from homes) all over East Rock Park.

I know it's frustrating that not everyone "gets it" but this is life. It's just like people who throw their cigarette butts or litter...

Posted by: Been Called Worse | August 25, 2009 8:03 PM

Streever -

I see what passes for food in low income families--it's frequently what is available locally to them, which tends to be over-packaged and automatically put in free plastic bags.

I wholeheartedly agree. It wasn't until 5 or 6 months after moving to nyc that I was able to look past the golden arches and the tasteful allure of subway sandwich artists and realize there were fresh fruit stands on most corners. I've never looked back and feel great for it. Unfortunately yes, the options are limited in New Haven, to an extent. There are atleast 6 supermarkets which carry fresh healthy foods that I can think of, but even consuming negligently is not a barrier to recycling.

Did you follow the link to DSNY's recycling flyer? It doesn't get simpler than that. Wait, it does. New Haven it looking to implement single stream recycling, as opposed to nyc where I now separate bottles, glass, metal/foil, cardboard separately and then garbage waste.

I fail to see how with the proper informational campaign fines would have an unequal impact if everyone is equally informed and educated. Just to be clear: I'm referring to fines for not recycling. I do not agree with charging residents for discarding more waste than will fit in the smaller waste bins. Using your logic, the testing protocol for obtaining a driver's license must have an unequal impact on poor families, because those concepts are more difficult to grasp than single stream recycling.

----

To address your Point B: I grew up alongside those families in those same economic conditions you speak of. I graduated high school with many of them and saw others drop out. I was there when their children were born, was there when they got sentenced to prison or graduated college, visited them in jail and gave their babies momma money on their behalf for christmas presents. I have attended more funerals than I care to remember that can be attributed to gun violence. To presume my naiveté in the socio-economic conditions of new haven's struggling poor and disenfranchised is laughable. You lived in the Hill for 2.5 years though. You should get a certificate or something for that, perhaps.

Posted by: Sherill | August 25, 2009 11:09 PM

According to Data Haven census info for New Haven:

Average household size of owner-occupied unit = 2.62 (+/-0.24 error)

Average household size of renter-occupied unit = 2.21 (+/-0.12 error)

BEDROOMS
No bedroom 2,496 (+/-861 error)
1 bedroom 12,486 (+/-1,839 error)
2 bedrooms 19,264 (+/-2,121 error)
3 bedrooms 11,294 (+/-1,746 error)
4 bedrooms 3,325 (+/-901 error)
5 or more bedrooms 3,067 (+/-1,435 error)

It's also important to remember that we have a huge number of rental units in New Haven with a high vacancy rate - higher rate for rentals.

HOUSING OCCUPANCY

Total housing units 51,932 (+/-2,870 error)
Occupied housing units 46,611 (+/-2,680 error)
Vacant housing units 5,321 (+/-1,472 error)

Homeowner vacancy rate 3.4 (+/-2.8 error)
Rental vacancy rate 6.4 (+/-2.9 error)

Also - the national average for waste generate per person per day is 4.6 lbs or 32.2 lbs/week. This translates to 24.85 gallons of trash - without any waste reduction, reuse, recycling or composting.

With our current rate of 10% we can assume the average individual is sending 22.37 gallons to the incinerator on a weekly basis - the remaining reduced, recycled, composted, etc.

Based on average household size of 2.62 (we'll take the larger of the two, which is the owner occupied number)... trash generated is an estimated 65.10 gallons/week. With the new program - which at a minimum would be a recovery rate of 50% we see our trash drop from 65.10 gallons to 32.55 gallons per week.

As for recovery rates. Single stream recycling collection programs commonly see a 50% diversion or recovery rate of recyclables. Higher when the program includes a curbside recycling program (up to 80%). However, these are not taking into account changing to a larger container and an incentive program like Recycle Bank. So a 50% recovery/diversion is conservative.

Source: for trash generation data www.epa.gov

Source for conversion: www.recyclemaniacs.org/doc/measurement-tracking/conversions.pdf

Single Stream press in other areas:
http://search.earth911.com/articles/?query=single+stream&search_content=0

Single Stream reports:
http://www.conservatree.org/learn/SolidWaste/bestpractices.shtml

RecycleBank.com for their info.

Posted by: robn | August 26, 2009 1:15 PM

SHERILL,

Thank you for injecting fact into a fact free zone.

Posted by: Sherill | August 26, 2009 6:35 PM

CORRECTION:

I wrote:
As for recovery rates. Single stream recycling collection programs commonly see a 50% diversion or recovery rate of recyclables. Higher when the program includes a curbside recycling program (up to 80%).

It should say curbside 'composting' programs (up to 80%). This is what other communities have been able to reach when they have a curbside program that accepts food waste in addition to yard waste.

Apologies for the error.

Posted by: streever | August 27, 2009 12:00 AM

Been Called Worse:

I don't think I took the tone/attitude with you that you took with me, but I'm sorry if I offended you--your extremely sarcastic reply implies that.

Look, you grew up in the hill. I'm sure you know that it's true that recycling is not a big priority there. We're talking about a neighborhood that refuses street trees. Let's be realistics & work on education before we impose fines. That's all I'm asking.

Is that too much?

Posted by: streever | August 27, 2009 12:02 AM

and, Been Called Worse, I grew up in a 40k household and lived for periods without electricity. I've been homeless. It's nothing I'm proud of but it's my life, & I've done well despite it. Let's not compete to be the worst off.