New Haven Independent

Posted by: juli | October 12, 2009 12:10 PM

i am so happy to hear that people can find support here, and that it is a place of focusing on what we have in common instead of what divides us. best of luck.

Posted by: Bill | October 12, 2009 3:37 PM

Gays and lesbians are welcome to be in the Catholic Church as well. As a matter of fact many priests are gay. The only caveat is you will be told that having homosexual relations is sinful, as is being an adulterer.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"

Posted by: William Kurtz | October 12, 2009 6:06 PM

Which translation of the Bible are you quoting from, Bill?

Posted by: Ned | October 13, 2009 8:40 AM

Wow Bill; (allegedly) str8 guys, like you, amaze me as your so obsessed with Gay male sexuality. Do you ever think about sex with women? Or, do you just read the Independent as an excuse to look at the pictures of the hot cops?

Meanwhile, (this is too easy) in the latest Catholic church news... Mexico Arrests Priest in Rape-Murder

Supreme Court nixes priest's appeal in nun killing

In the "spirit" of ecumenism...Faith-healing parents charged in death of infant son

Summer reading list:
The God Delusion

Posted by: Bill | October 13, 2009 9:43 AM

William Kurtz,
The question is which one does The United Church on the Green use. They must have done a lot of cut and paste.

Posted by: William Kurtz | October 13, 2009 1:15 PM

Fair enough; I extend the same question to them. But still you haven't answered; can you give the chapter and verse for your citation, as well as the publication info for the translation?

Posted by: Bill | October 13, 2009 3:31 PM

1 Corinthians 6:9 New International Version. (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/6-9.htm)
I'm not going to get into a theology debate. Sodomy is clearly considered a sin in scripture. I was just trying to point out that the Catholic church is not against gays any more than they are against adulterers or even murderers. It's the behavior not the person.

Posted by: streever | October 13, 2009 8:54 PM

Bill:
It's funny how the Catholic church gets to say what is and isn't a sin & then claim to be absolved of all responsibility in judgement.

My old roommate was a very strict & disciplined Christian. He woke up at 5 am to study the Bible until 6. He was not sexually active because he was not married. He attended church at least once a week. He volunteered to help people & went into plastics so he could help burn victims.

He also never passed judgement on anyone. He believed that you could live your life your way and he could live his his way.

The bible also says, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", Bill.

Posted by: Sally Tamarkin | October 13, 2009 9:11 PM

Sodomy is clearly considered a sin in scripture.

Yawn.

Hate the sin, love the sinner?

Double yawn.

Is there a prize of toasters or steak knives for being the 8 billionth person to use something that sounds vaguely religious/biblical/theological to condemn homosexuality--oops, sorry, homosexual BEHAVIOR--when the only firm, irrefutable basis for such claims is the claimant's own homophobia? Just wondering.

Posted by: Bob Solomon | October 14, 2009 12:11 AM

also from the New International Edition -

Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.
2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

Posted by: Bob Solomon | October 14, 2009 12:31 AM

and from Levitticus 19 -

'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Posted by: cwhig | October 14, 2009 8:21 AM

Great article, Allan. Kudos to John Gage for continuing the tradition of his church as a place of refuge and a bastion of liberty.

Posted by: Bill | October 14, 2009 8:37 AM

Sally, Streever, Bob,
Why don't you just say that you don't believe in religion, there are no sins, there is no God and you can do whatever you please.
Fine.
But the United Church is a Christian church which is based on Christ and some version of the Bible. And I'm guessing that Bible says homosexual behavior is a sin.

Posted by: Bob Solomon | October 14, 2009 10:19 AM

Bill - why do you assume that anyone who does not interpret the Bible literally does not "believe in religion." (I don't really know what you mean by that. Do you mean we do not believe in God? In an organization self-designating itself around a theory of belief?) As it happens, I actually read the Bible occasionally, and, more frequently, other sources concerning the Bible and Jesus. There is little question that in the 100 years after Jesus' death, there were many political fights over which gospels should be included in the Bible. The Gnostics lost this fight, but the Gospel of Thomas still existed, supressed by the human beings who prevailed. Here's our difference - I believe that the choice of what to include was a human choice, not the will of God. That, in my opinion, is why the Bible is at times self-contradictory. If you, or anyone else, is interested in this topic, I suggest any of Elaine Pagel's works. But, if you are attacking my spirituality, I for one do not look to the Bible as the final Word, in large part because of the acceptance of male dominance over women, the acceptance of slaves, and the bigotry against many. In my view, those were cultural decisions by those in power to keep themselves in power. By the way, the New International is not an accurate translation of the original Aramaic anyway, but is popular among people who want a modern easy description. The paragraphs you cite are disputed by many serious scholars. However, in the description of the destruction of Sodom, it appears that the most serious crime was idolotry.

Posted by: William Kurtz | October 14, 2009 11:48 AM

Wow! Sorry, Bill; it really wasn't my intention to open this theological debate. I just get frustrated reading through the Bible for the dirty parts since the text is so small and the paper so thin in my copies. Much better to have someone do the important work of cataloging all the instances where sex is mentioned.

But since you asked, I think the reason the United Church can dare to call itself Christian despite embracing people regardless of their sexual orientation is that their conception of Christian thought is evolving. Bob Solomon said it better, but basically, if more liberal congregations can't cherry pick, neither can more conservative ones. Check out A.J. Jacobs' The Year of Living Biblically for a pretty comprehensive list of all the things you should be doing if you're going to call yourself a devoted follower of the Bible.

But actually, I agree with you: the Catholic church has every right to continue its slow slide into irrelevance with its reactionary doctrines on women, contraception, etc.

Posted by: bill | October 14, 2009 3:41 PM

Ok guys, what other sins have evolved thinkers eliminated besides sodomy, adultery, stealing and perhaps killing if it's an unborn child. Are there any sins in your religion or your spiritual whatever?

Posted by: Bill | October 14, 2009 3:42 PM

Streever, You left out the part about "go and sin no more".

Posted by: Bob Solomon | October 14, 2009 5:58 PM

Bill - a little too facile, in your assumption that "eliminating" what you call sins to be the work of "advanced thinkers" or that assuming thatStreever, Sally and I believe the same thing, just because we disagree with your notion of sin. My understanding of Jesus is that he would have opposed killing in Iraq and opposed the death penalty, but many in the church herarchy disagree with me. Much of what we consider "sin" is more cultural than amything else. Much of what Christians consider sin might surprise Jesus, who was from birth to death an observant Jew. I think Jesus would find it surprising that his followers do not observe Passover, i.e. the Last Supper, but after his death, Church leaders made a political and cultural decision to distance themselves from this Jewish tradition. When I was growing up, my Catholic friends could not eat meat on Friday. Now they can. Has sin changed? Was Martin Luther less Chrisitan because he believed, like Thomas, that a personal relationship with God did not required the intermediary of Pope and Priest. Thomas was cast aside because of that belief, much like Stalin erased evidence of his opponents. And yes, I beleive in a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy, and that calling it murder is a construct invented by men to keep women subjugated.

Posted by: Jack | October 15, 2009 10:19 AM

I'm always glad when people seek out or start their own churches, and not and waste alot of time trying to change the Theology of mine. All this talk about Biblical quotations, betrays a basic ignorance about what the Catholic Faith is based on. Scripture Alone and the Individuals private interpretation of it, is what the other Christian Tradition is based on, not mine.

Posted by: Jack | October 15, 2009 12:19 PM

I just realized that I may have opened quite a can of worms. Trying to explain the Faith in this forum, is something I could never adequately do, and would only crash the NHI server. All of the whats, hows, and whys of the Faith are readily available in the book entitled The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is written in laymans language, sites all the references, and is available in every bookstore. Know your enemy and all that.

Posted by: Bill | October 15, 2009 3:00 PM

Jack,
Faith is part of the Catholic Catechism, as is good works, and sins.

Posted by: Jack | October 15, 2009 10:59 PM

Bill, the Catholic Faith is base on the teachings of the Magisterium,the Holy Scriptures,and Sacred Tradition,under which everything you site is covered.

Posted by: Ned | October 16, 2009 10:00 AM

Jack, I think you re-opened the "diet of worms", not just the can... Wouldn't it be better to just give up all of the "spiritual" mumbo-jumbo, "isms" fairy-tales and make believe?

Posted by: Jack | October 17, 2009 11:48 AM

Love the Diet of Worms reference. i think the Church of Secular Humanism a lot of people worship at, is alot of crap too. Especially their Doctrine of Leftist Ideology. But I'm willing to live, and let live.

Posted by: Jack | October 17, 2009 1:03 PM

People never stop Worshiping, they just change the things they Worship. But Worship they do indeed do.

Posted by: Ned | October 20, 2009 11:35 AM

It should be noted that sodomy is punishable by death in the Islamic faith... probably the reason the gay rights movement has not taken off in the middles east or in countries like Indonesia.

This is also most likely the reason that the above mentioned places are not hot destinations for gay couples.

If any homosexual men, women, rights groups, etc. want to make a significant global statement about gay rights, they should host a Gay Rights Conference in Syria or Saudi Arabia. Surely it is only the radical fundamentalist Muslims that would be offended and react harshly. Besides those fundamentalist Muslims are mostly located in mountains on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border. Moreover, I am sure that most Muslims are moderate progressive thinkers and would welcome a gay rights movement in the Muslim world. Why keep wasting time trying to convert these intolerant American Christians when there are 1.2 billion Muslims who are un-evangelized, that is oblivious to the needs and rights of homosexual men and women!

Let's not be so pretentious. We already have openly gay priests in the good old US of A. Doesn't the Islamic world need homosexual Imams?

THE ISLAMIC GAY RIGHTS MOVEMENT

Who's in?!?!

Posted by: Jack | October 20, 2009 9:24 PM

I don't think so Ned, Not many people are willing to be murdered by their families, hanged, or buried alive, no matter what the cause. I would suggest you stay here with the Christians and Jews. Some of us may call you a sinner, but that's only because we love you.

Posted by: Linda Yannone | October 21, 2009 6:32 AM

Thank you God and all- for telling your stories. My prayer is for our denomination to continue to have the courage to include and encourage more actions and involvements in wonderful, vibrant grace filled churches.