New Haven Independent

posted by: Mike on January 17, 2012  9:25am

There are so many arguments, they say they cant afford to hire anyone? So does this mean they wont/dont sell enough to pay some local person 80 bucks a day to sit there and run a cash register? If that is true then they should probably find a new business.

As far as the day off for alcoholics… c’mon, a true alcoholic ALWAYS has a line on booze, my own grandfather(RIP) taught me that.

How is it that the store owners wont make money? I dont get it. Do they mean less money because they may have to hire someone?

posted by: Curious on January 17, 2012  9:28am

Everyone I know wishes they could buy beer or wine or liquor on Sundays.

Shop owners concerns are ...  This law would not mandate being open on Sundays, just allow it.  You don’t like being open, then don’t open your store.

posted by: Mikee on January 17, 2012  10:25am

I see no problem with Sunday Liquor sales, their is no law against being closed one day during the week, restaurants sometimes close on what they consider to be a slow day.

posted by: schneur on January 17, 2012  12:13pm

Booze is sold in NYC on Sunday. Package stores have an option to be open.
No spike in crime has been reported.

posted by: westville man on January 17, 2012  12:49pm

@ Mike

Small liquor stores are usually family run. They dont have many employees, if any at all. Their concern is that the hours of operation will be increased by Sunday opening (and therefore costs will too) with no appreciable increase in weekly sales.
When they went to a 9pm closing time instead of 8pm a few years back, this proved true. No increase in sales, just folks coming in later.
So we may put the little guy out of business and be left with the warehouse stores. Many folks are fine w that.

posted by: Prospective Sunday Buyer on January 17, 2012  12:49pm

If you don’t want to be open 7 days a week, close on MONDAY! I wonder what the sales stats are for Mondays. I bet it is the lowest sales day of the week. This is a no-brainer being held up for personal reasons of a few shop owners, not common sense, budget needs, or consumer service.

posted by: HhE on January 17, 2012  1:23pm

It seams the new definition of “common sense” is “I like this idea, it suits me, but I don’t want to think about the down side.”

As an atheist, Sundays are not sacred to me, but I can remember back in the ‘70s when just about everything shut down on Sundays.  It may have been inconvenient, but it made Sundays a true day of rest and reflection. 

The logic that this will increase sales and tax revenue is flawed.  Yes, we lose some sales to New York, but not that much (I used to live in Greenwich, so I know something about going over the border.).  The Commonwealth does not have beer and liquor sales on Sundays, except for towns near New Hampshire. Opening Sundays will not increase sales 1/7x over current rates—it is largely a zero sum game.

What this does favor is large businesses like supermarkets that are already open on Sundays.  Just what we need, another opportunity to squeeze out the little guys who is the way of big business.

posted by: Colt45 on January 17, 2012  2:21pm

The Sunday market is already being served according to the article:  “...There’s a house in the Hill where you can get 40-ounce beers for $5 and pints of liquor for $10 or $15 on Sundays, she said.”

Except for a few border locations the amount of alcohol purchsed in seven days is going to equal the amount purchased today in six.  The big box always open stores are the only ones that “win” with Sunday sales.

posted by: Terry Cowgill on January 17, 2012  2:35pm

“Dharani acknowledged that the law wouldn’t require him to stay open on Sundays. But if all his competitors stay open, he’d have to as well, he said.”

So let me get this straight: Mr. Dharani wants the government to protect him from competition. In other words, CT’s 3.5 million consumers should suffer for the benefit of a thousand package store owners.

Makes sense to me ...

posted by: HhE on January 17, 2012  3:32pm

Terry Cowgill, I hope most consumers can look far enough ahead to their drinking needs that they could survive without being able to buy alcohol one day a week.  I find that beer lasts at least a few days, and wine and spirits even longer. 

Our convenience culture, with zero tolerance for any delay, extracts a steep price.

posted by: HhE on January 17, 2012  3:39pm

Terry Cowhill, a follow up to my previous post…

“...To bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak,...”

http://www.thenagain.info/Classes/Sources/Hammurabi-Prologue.html

posted by: ZeeDee on January 17, 2012  4:32pm

I am of Indian descent and thus I know a lot of people who own liquor stores. All of my friends who own them have ONE argument against Sunday sales: they’d have to be open. If only one store was to stay open, all of them would be open on Sundays. As much as I agree with them about having a day off, it’s really annoying when I want to buy beer on while watching football at home on Sunday.

Mr. Dharani’s remark about “damag[ing] society” by giving kids one more day to be able to hang around liquor shops sounds like a total lie. If he cared about damaging society so much, why is he in the liquor business in the first place.

I realize that people like Mr. X have good intentions but let’s forget about morality for a minute. According to the law, I can’t buy beer on Sunday and drink safely at home. But I CAN go out to a bar or restaurant, drink, and possibly have to drive home. Where’s the logic in this? People who want to drink are going to drink regardless. The current best way to get around Sunday’s ban on sales is to…buy more on Saturday!

posted by: Terry Cowgill on January 17, 2012  4:43pm

HhE, using your logic, virtually nothing should be open on Sunday. Do you support prohibiting convenience stores from opening that day? After all, the mom-and-pop corner store is forced to stay open if the big corporate Cumberland Farms is allowed to.

How about the corner barber shop losing business to the mall hair-cutting places, most of which are open on Sunday? Should the mall hair salons be forced to close to protect Mario the barber in Middletown?

If your answer to the above questions is no, then I would ask you why package store owners deserve special protections?

posted by: Larry on January 17, 2012  5:21pm

Pan’s package store .... He should fix his fridge and dust off his old wine bottles, vacuum the rug, if he concerned about business. Nice guy but ...

Anyone who thinks CT , a small state bordered by 3 states doesnt lose money on Sunday sales is delusional. Folks make runs all the time on Sundays. Especially during football season

In the summertime down on the shore it’s hilarious to see dumbfounded out of state vacationers shocked to see tarps on beer in grocery stores or pull up to a package store on Sunday and pull on the locked doors.

Enough of the silly protectionism of a few people , pass this bill already

posted by: Mike on January 17, 2012  5:40pm

Terry Cowgill says it all. Lets also not forget that alcohol is frowned upon by most religions which is the main force behind these old, nonsensical laws.

Let the “family” run stores hire someone from the neighborhood to work Sundays. I cant imagine it is too hard or expensive to find someone to work 8 hours a week.

posted by: Curious on January 17, 2012  5:40pm

These owners and supporters are also citing alogical fallacy - no one will buy alcohol on Sundays, but competitors will be open on Sundays to reap the benefits of Sunday sales, so they have to be open too.

If there is no money to be made on Sunday alcohol sales, then why not just stay closed, regardless of what your competitors do?

posted by: HhE on January 17, 2012  5:44pm

Terry Cowgill, we survived the ‘70s just fine without shopping on Sunday.  I am a strong supporter of separation of Church and State, so I have some reservations about designating Sunday as the day of no alcohol sales.  At the end of the day, I think Sundays as a dry day is not a bad idea.  As I am committed to supporting small, local retailers and service providers, I would not take issue with extending this to other merchants. 

ZeeDee, I have long opined that if we had a ten day waiting/cooling off period before the purchase of any alcohol, we would solve a lot of problems.  How many DWIs would we have if one had to pre order drinks from a bar or restaurant two weeks in advance? 

In the meantime, there is this thing called a calendar It can actually tell you when the next Sunday is going to happen.  What has happened to our ability to plan that we cannot buy beer on a Saturday in anticipation of drinking while watching a game on Sunday? 

Please consider…
http://judithshulevitz.com/

posted by: William Kurtz on January 17, 2012  6:58pm

I have mixed feelings about this bill; on one hand, yes, it’s just protectionism for a relatively small group of independent business operators. On the other hand, I don’t have a problem with that, considering how many laws, procedures, regulations and policies favor large businesses.

None of the other arguments for or against it really matter. First, no one is saying ‘no one will buy beer on Sunday’; they’re saying ‘there won’t be any net weekly gain in sales to offset the weekly rise in overhead. Next, is there any hard data on exactly how much money is being spent on liquor sales on Sunday in neighboring states? I suspect it’s not that much—everyone I know knows to plan ahead. Anecdote offsets anecdote.

posted by: Fairhaven Dave on January 17, 2012  9:55pm

@ Curious

Spot on.  They want to be closed, but they don’t want to lose business to local grocery stores either.  Current rules make people stock up when they ARE open.  Changing this would let “last second Joe” shop when he wants.

Bad deal for the mom and pop stores, but this is a STUPID law.

posted by: David Andrews on January 17, 2012  10:28pm

The package store owners opposed to lifting the ban are like jealous exes…they don’t want the customers, but they don’t want anyone to have them either.  What do I mean?  Those stupid tarps covering the beer aisles on Sunday.  Grocery stores already open, no additional expense for them on Sunday.  Lift the tarps and sell the beer already!  It’s 2012, Connecticut is rather pathetic in this sense.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on January 18, 2012  1:17am

“If there is no money to be made on Sunday alcohol sales, then why not just stay closed, regardless of what your competitors do?”

William Kurtz already addressed this, but an example might explain it better.

Imagine that the average costumer of one of these stores in question in Newhallville or Dixwell or West River has roughly $20 to spend on alcohol for any given week (maybe some weeks it’s $10 and other weeks its $30). Currently they spend that $20 over the course of 6 days when the stores are allowed to sell alcohol under the current law, which is undoubtedly an archaic leftover from puritanism. The issue that the small store owners are bringing up is that these costumers will continue to spend an average of $20/week on alcohol except they will now spend it over a 7 day period if the new law is passed. If these stores do not stay open, then they will lose that 7th day of business, and perhaps more business if their local costumers start going to the larger supermarkets for more of their shopping on other days as well. However, if these small store owners decide to stay open, then they either have to hire an employee or they have to work 7 days a week.
These small grocery and shop owners work unbelievably hard and very long hours as it is and I find it difficult to imagine adding more to that work schedule is possible. I also find it difficult to believe that the overhead from another employee + utilities for opening an additional day will be made up for in additional revenue, especially considering the very minimal profit margin that small stores like this operate at.
It’s not like the patrons on these small, local stores can afford to just simply buy more on an additional day - they have budgets and limited funds that consists of roughly the same amount of money each week that can be spent on a certain number of goods.
The law is obsolete and reflective of a different culture, but it still has importance in today’s society, although for different reasons than it’s initial intentions. I’m a bit torn on this issue because there have been times that I’ve wanted to buy alcohol on Sunday, but couldn’t, and I also want to help small store owners as much as possible. My sense is that the bill will pass and shop owners should just close the store on their slowest days, which may not turn out to be a Sunday at all.

posted by: westville man on January 18, 2012  10:36am

I can shorten this argument to a few words:  if you dont mind buying you booze from warehouses and supermarkets, Sunday sales is a good idea.
If you bemoan the loss of family-run neighborhood stores (with higher pricing), then Sunday sales is a bad idea.
Now each side can argue WHY theirs is the better argument, but that’s how it falls.

posted by: Stephen Harris on January 18, 2012  11:09am

I guess I’m a puritan on this one. Do we really need to be shopping, not just for booze but for other things as well, seven days a week? Can we stop being consumers one day out of the week? I try to keep Sunday as quiet as I can. It’s good to unwind and do nothing.

posted by: Ivan Zarkov on January 18, 2012  11:25am

I can sympathize with small store owners who are afraid of competition, but this is really a constitutional issue. What right does the State have to tell business owners what days of the week they must be closed? What is the justification?

This is an old blue law from the time when Puritan Protestants ran the government. Sunday is the Christian sabbath, and that is why they banned Sunday liquor sales.

We now have a constitution (for the last 200 + years) that separates the State from the Church, and this old blue law must be repealed.

posted by: Curious on January 18, 2012  11:59am

@ Jonathon Hopkins,

It would be nice if blacksmiths never had to lose their livelihoods either, and nice if that was still a thriving trade.

However, we have cars now.  There are no laws prohibiting the use of cars on Sundays in order to force people to keep horses, so that blacksmiths could stay in business.

Times change.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on January 18, 2012  6:36pm

Curious,
Did you read my entire comment and therefore saying that small, locally owned stores are as obsolete as blacksmiths?
If that’s the case, then the American Dream is obsolete as well and we should all just sit back and allow mechanized efficiency to inform every aspect of life - from our employment structure to the networks of commerce. A person’s drive will no longer determine their success, but rather their usefulness to large corporations will determine that. We are already well on our way to this situation, but we’ll accelerate it by not caring about small business owners.
I don’t necessarily think that selling liquor on Sunday’s will have an adverse effect on these businesses, as I stated in my first post, but we should care about these businesses, their roles in our communities and lives, and the circumstances and conditions that effect their livelihood.

posted by: robn on January 18, 2012  7:55pm

Legislate bad behavior, not behavior you find objectionable on a particular day. In other words, don’t restrict freedom, just restrict the behavior of those who would restrict others freedom (as the founders intended). Besides, if we want to legislate a legal day off for people lets do it for everyone instead of just one industry.

posted by: Fabricio on January 19, 2012  2:09am

This is a silly debate. If this were a prize fight, it would be stopped in the first round.

There is no rational argument—NONE—to continue the ban on Sunday sales.

It’s time for Connecticut to join the 20th century (and yes I’m aware we’re in the 21st).

... If you are concerned about losing business to larger stores, then do something to ADD VALUE. Know your product better. Offer personal attention to clients. Give them a reason to use your shop on the other days of the week.

For those of you wanting a quiet Sunday: you do that. No one is stopping you. And you should not be meddling with people who want to swing by a liquor shop for a six pack or a bottle of Prosecco or Rioja. Basically, it’s none of your frikkin business how other people choose to spend their Sunday.

...

posted by: Mike on January 19, 2012  8:43am

Jonathan, what exactly is the roll of the small family run corner liquor store owners in the communities they serve?

posted by: Matt on January 19, 2012  12:57pm

Don’t support this proposal as is!

Protect small business and CT business.

Allow towns bordering states with more lenient laws the ability to conform to the lowest standard to compete. Leave current laws in place elsewhere in the state.

posted by: William Kurtz on January 19, 2012  1:08pm

Maybe the idea solution is law requiring every retail establishment to close at least one day each week.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on January 19, 2012  1:56pm

Mike,
More of the revenue from locally owned stores, liquor stores included, circulates within the immediate area than from nationally owned chains, like Supermarkets. On average, something like 63 cents of every dollar spent at a local stores stays in the community, whereas only 47 cents of every dollar spent in a national chain sticks around. The owners and employees of local stores live close to their stores, pay local property taxes, frequent other local establishments, raise families, etc. Most of the revenue from chain stores goes to corporate CEO’s and managers who live in other states, hide most of their taxable worth in offshore accounts, and have absolutely no connection to New Haven.

posted by: HhE on January 19, 2012  10:21pm

As I read the various posts on this issue, I noticed that a number of people who favor repealing the ban on sales of alcohol on Sundays, have taken to calling our position “stupid” and “irrational.”  In spite of what Fox News and MSNBC tell you, name calling is not good argumentation.

Mike, have you tried hiring someone part time in Connecticut?  I have not, but a friend of mine did.  I cannot say I recommend it.  Most of his employees were there for the employ discount, and perhaps some extra money on the side.  So far so good, but if someone working 20 hours a week wanted to be cut back to 10, then my friend had to pay the state unemployment because “You cut his hours.” 

I continue to think that supporting small, local businesses is a good idea.  As a consumer, I do it all the time.  I don’t buy that much alcohol, but when I do, I prefer the small store in part because it is far more likely to have interesting beers than a supermarket.  I do feel diminished as a person whenever I shop in a big box. 

Am I irrational and stupid?  Well, my IQ is a mere 130, and I only have a Master plus 33 hours.  On the other hand, I am able to read a calendar, and count how much beer I have on hand.  I have been evaluated, and apparently I am not insane. 

At the end of the day, do we need to eliminate the tapestry of our communities so we can drive at any time to a store that could be in any part of the country, and buy mediocre products—even on a Sunday? 

Oh heck, just read the posts of Jonathan Hopkins and William Kurtz.  They said it better than me.

posted by: HhE on January 19, 2012  10:25pm

P.S.  When I lived in Greenwich in the ‘80s, more people went over the state line to buy alcohol because New york still had 18 as its drinking age, than because of dry Sundays.  Think of all the business and tax revenue we could gain if we just lowered the drinking age to 18.

posted by: jay on January 20, 2012  1:37pm

hhe:

there is nothing stupid or irrational about your arguments, and you are free to engage in any activity you like, on any day of the week. please allow your neighbors the same courtesy, and stop advocating the legislative enforcement of your values on others.

posted by: HhE on January 20, 2012  2:31pm

Fair enough, jay, but Fairhaven Dave and Fabricio seam to think otherwise.

The values I am seeking to enforce upon my neighbors through legislation are the importance of small businesses and perhaps the value of setting aside one day a week for rest and reflection. 

My world would not come crashing down upon me if people could buy alcohol on Sundays.  Robn suggested that the one day off need not be a Sunday, and I think that is a good idea. 

I don’t take issue with alcohol, even if I have been dry as many years in my life as not.  I do take issue with DUI and public drunkenness, which is why I stay home on New Years and St Patrick’s Day. 

For what it is worth, I am an atheist who thinks abortion is a medical solution to a medical problem, and that the NRA is soft on 2nd Amendment issues.  I get the convenience of shopping on Sundays, I even do it myself, I just think we are SLIGHTLY better off as things are.

posted by: jay on January 20, 2012  3:47pm

thanks for the reply hhe.

if you feel compelled enforce your values on your neighbors, how about leading by example instead of advocating laws that restrict your neighbor’s freedom to choose what they value?

you’ve mentioned your atheism multiple times in your comments. how about you start an atheist’s club that meets on sundays? maybe in these meetings you can prosthelytize to your fellow members, encouraging them to keep a day of rest, and to resist alcohol.

while it might not be my cup of tea, (i like the stronger stuff on sundays) i’d stand with you, and support your right to do it. please be respectful of others who may not agree with you, and reserve the use of law for crimes that have victims.

posted by: Mike on January 20, 2012  4:27pm

Jonathan- I was just setting you up and I apologize, I do understand how money goes around. I just wanted to see if you also consider the damage these liquor stores do to the communities as well. Selling 40oz beers and cheap booze on the corner is not all that good for many communities but a totally different subject that has a little to do why people dont want them open on Sunday and nothing to do with helping my argument.

Hhe- I do hire people part time year round when I need them and its not that hard. The paperwork can be a real pain but sometimes I NEED help, the job requires it so what can I do but get help. If I owned a small liquor store I would already have someone working one or two days a week, 5 is enough for me.

Giving someone a job is giving back to the community more than anything, selling cheap beer/booze on the corner and then taking all the profit to a cozy house in Hamden or Bethany doesnt help New Haven much.(another subject again)

It really is about freedom 7 days a week, not 6 days. Stay open 7 days or dont, I still wont be buying beer at the big box grocery store anyways and I doubt most people I know will either we have a great local shop to go to.