New Haven Independent

posted by: tboss68 on March 8, 2010  3:54pm

If these terrorists are NOT American citizens, why in hell should they be afforded the same rights as American citizens?!!  It’s a sad sad day when we are bending over backwards in order to give these suspected terorists as much support and help as they want.  Maybe they will be set free and kill a group of U.S. servicemen.  As far as waterboarding goes, who the hell cares if some Al-Qaeda operative is subject to waterboarding?  If he spills his guts and saves some American lives in doing so, then it should be doomed a successful tool.  Dodd is nothing but a crooked painty-waist.  The apple doesn’t fall far as they say.

posted by: Joe the electritian on March 8, 2010  6:32pm

tboss68:  If you we’re being water-boarded you’d also admit to pretty much anything to make it stop. ...

posted by: William Kurtz on March 9, 2010  10:12am

tboss,

Maybe the justification can be found in Article III, section 2, of the Constitution:

The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

Or in the absolute language of any of the other foundational texts many people see as embodying the essence of American principle, “liberty and justice for all,” or “endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.” 

Seems simple.

posted by: mikepc45 on March 9, 2010  10:42am

How bout we try Dodd with a military tribunal and we give KSM the slot in civilian court that should be reserved for him. Be noble senator Dodd have the strength of your convictions. Put up or “**.” You and your party destroyed Fannie and Freddy. I spent 15 years in the mortage business I was present at the creation. Google Jamie Gorelick, Kevin Raines and take a look at Ram Emanuel"s little nest egg at Freddy. Repubs are just as corrupt but with the fifth estate in country now being a fifth column for Obama and the Dems things get over looked.

posted by: Mike Lee on March 9, 2010  1:32pm

KSM should be tried in the civilian court for the very simple reason that terrorism is a criminal offense. It is defined as such by US Code (see Title 18, Part I, Ch 113B).  Criminal offenses are tried in criminal courts. The argument against giving terrorists the same rights as American citizens, besides being a red herring, is nonsensical.  Everyone tried in criminal courts has the same rights, citizen or not.

Besides the matter of the US Code, the civilian court system has a long record of successful trials of terrorists.  This does not hold true for the military tribunals.  While they are also supported by law, they have already been found to be illegal once by the Supreme Court and are currently on very shaky ground despite the attempt to fix the Constitutional issues by way of further legislation.  If KSM is convicted in a military tribunal he would still have the right to appeal to the Supreme Court.  This could go on for decades.  The civilian courts do not have this problem.

The track record of the military courts is so short as to be embarassing to me even to discuss it.  Out of the 1000+ prisoners we have held at Guantanamo and in Afghanistan we have been able to successfully prosecute 3 in the military tribunals.  Two of the prisoners received such light sentences that they have already served their time and have been released.  That leaves one person convicted and imprisoned.  One. Out of a thousand.

This raises the issue of the severity of the sentences imposed by civilian courts compared to those few imposed by military tribunals.  The military tribunals tend to issue less severe sentences for comparable crimes, if the exceedingly small sample can be construed as indicative of a trend.  Let’s do a quick comparison.

Here are the convictions in the Bush military tribunals:

Ali Hamza Ahmad Suliman al Bahlul - life
Salim Hamdan - 5 years time served plus 6 months
David Hicks - 5 months

Here is a partial list of convictions in civilian courts:
1993 WTC BOMBING:
Mahmoud Abouhalima - life + 240 years
Mohammed Abouhalima - 8 years
Ahmad Ajaj - Life + 240 years
Eyad Mahmoud Ismoil - Life + 240 years
Alah Jobroni - Life + 240 years
Bilal al Kaisi - 20 months
Eyad Mahmoud Ismail Najim life + 240 years, $10 million restitution, $250,000 fine
Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman (aka “The Blind Sheikh) - life + 240 years
Mohammad Salameh - Life + 240 years
Ibrahim Ahmad Suleiman - 10 months
Ibrahim el-Gabrowny - 57 years

LANDMARKS PLOT
Amir Abdelgani - 30 years
Fadil Abdelgani - 25 years
Siddig Siddig Ali - 11 years
Victor Alvarez - 35 years
Ibrahim el-Gabrowny
Clement Rodney-El - 35 years
Tarig El-Hassan - 35 years
Fares Khallafalla - 30 years
El Sayyd Nosair - Life
Matarawry Mohammed Said Saleh - convicted, deported to Egypt
Mohammed Saleh - 35 years

BOJINKA PLOT
Eyad Ismoil - 240 years, $250,000 fine, $10,000,000 restitution
Abdul Hakim Murad - Life without parole + 60 years, $250,000 fine
Wali Khan Amin Shah - Life
Ramzi Yousef - 240 years in solitary confinement

1998 EMBASSY BOMBINGS
Wadi al Hage - Life
Khalfan Khalis Mohamad - Life
Mohammed Sadeek Odeh - Life
Mohammed Rashad Daoud al-Owhali - Life

OTHERS
Michael Fortier - 12 years, $200,000 fine
Mir Aimal Kansi - executed
Timothy McVeigh - executed
Terry Nichols - 161 consecutive life sentences
Ahmed Ressam - 22 years

There are a couple of hundred more. This list does not even cover the civilian trials of the Weather Underground, SLA, KKK, and other domestic terrorist groups.

Why in the world anyone would want to try terrorists in the unproven and legally dubious military tribunals rather than the civilian court system with its long history of success is beyond my comprehension.

posted by: William Kurtz on March 9, 2010  2:52pm

Well said, Mr. Lee.