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Factory’s Suburban Move: A New Opportunity?

by Paul Bass | May 28, 2014 3:21 pm

(39) Comments | Commenting has been closed | E-mail the Author

Posted to: Business/ Economic Development, Legal Writes

Paul Bass Photos As New Haven’s oldest manufacturer prepares to pack up and leave town, the owner of Cody’s Diner down the block sees a possible uptick in business—eventually.

Troy Bacon (pictured at left) didn’t mourn the news that C. Cowles & Co. has decided to relocate to North Haven from its sprawling factory at Water and Chestnut streets.

His diner gets little business from the factory as it is, Bacon said. He envisions another factory-to-condo conversion at the building.

“It’s a huge building. You could get 100 apartments in there,” Bacon said over lunch Tuesday. “I was already talking to some people who said they’d buy a condo there,” Bacon said over lunch Tuesday.

“It should be a home run for someone to get in there. You see how expensive rents are? Especially around here?”

It’s unclear what will happen to next to the five-building complex owned by C. Cowles & Co.

It is clear that workers will no longer turn out light fixtures, auto parts, and boiler controls inside the complex. C. Cowles announced earlier this month that it will move its operation to the old Marlin firearms factory in North Haven, along with other divisions currently located in East Longmeadow, Mass.

C. Cowles expects to spend three months moving the Massachusetts divisions to North Haven. Starting in December, the company will gradually move its five divisions to North Haven in a process that should take a year, according to Larry Moon, who has owned the company since 1992.

That will close another chapter in New Haven’s once-proud manufacturing history. C. Cowles opened in New Haven in 1838, making lanterns, then other parts, for horse-drawn carriages. It made the transition to car and truck, as well as heating, parts in the 20th century, and grew into a multi-state company with an international customer base. Its divisions turn out, among other products, those tilt-levers for steering wheels, decorative striping that people put on their cars, electronic controls for boilers.Close to 100 people work at the New Haven plant. They will all keep their jobs, Moon told the Independent Wednesday.C. Cowles is believed to be New Haven’s oldest surviving manufacturer, the latest symbol of the vanishing industrial base that is being replaced by the “eds and meds” economy of the 21st century.It is moving for one of the same reasons so many other manufacturers fled New Haven for the suburbs generations ago: to operate in a single-story building. “We’re operating on four floors here,” Moon said. “This factory has been here since the 1890s. It’s just time to go into a modern facility that’s more conducive to manufacturing. We made it work here, but it’s cumbersome.”So Moon decided to consolidate his New Haven and Massachussetts operations in the 226,000-square-foot old Marlin factory off I-91 in North Haven, which he bought for $1.7 million, and to expand there.

Tax Boon For ‘Burbs

That’s great news for North Haven taxpayers. It helped officials there decide to increase town services without raising taxes this coming year.

In New Haven, meanwhile, which is raising taxes and looking for jobs for the unemployed and underemployed, the news drew a more mixed reaction—though less negative than might be expected.

To state Rep. Pat Dillon, C. Cowles’ little-noticed decision to flee New Haven sounds an alarm bell.

“This year there’s been much talk of PILOT [state Payments in Lieu of Taxes] dollars to New Haven. That’s important, but our mill rate and ability to compete cannot rely on PILOT without a diversified, durable tax base,” she argued.

She noted that “part of New Haven’s industrial history” leaves along with C. Cowles, joining an exodus of major employers who provide jobs for a wide range of skill levels. She also noted that the departure “follows the departure of UI [United Illuminating] to a suburban campus in Orange, and the pending purchase of AT&T by Stamford-based Frontier that represents a loss of local control of another legacy industry—and possibly job loss.” She noted that the state has been handing out grants and forgivable loans to other Connecticut companies to remain in their towns, the most recent announcement involving a Stamford firm. “The city, too, has tools to engage the firm to stay here. I hope my concerns are premature and that talks are taking place,” Dillon said.

The city’s top economic development official, Matthew Nemerson, said he has indeed been trying to get a sit-down with Cowles CEO Moon—not to ask him to revisit the move, but to discuss future plans for the three buildings.

Nemerson argued that the Cowles move could mean more jobs for New Haveners, since the company plans to expand. Elsewhere in the country, North Haven would be part of New Haven, not a separate municipality, he said.

“I don’t think there’s any bad news,” Nemerson said. “He’s expanding. He’s doing well. If he’s building a brand-new facility inside a venerable and modern facility with access to highways and only four minutes from his current site by the highway, even if there are workers who worked in the neighborhood and walked there, they can carpool. I’m not worried about it.”

Can You Get There?

Dillon is worried. She cited the lack of adequate mass transit to suburban jobs. (Read about that here.) “Our people cannot get to those jobs,” Dillon argued. “Even in New Haven the west side is a transit desert. We should ask the state and industry beginning with UI and Cowles to kick in for transit. It worked in Montana —some towns have free transit.”

Workers themselves are split on the move, including the ease of travel.

Dawn Velez, an assembler, said she lives in Cheshire and is looking forward to having a shorter commute. “I worked at Marlin’s before.”

Thomas MacMillan Photo Maria Rivera (pictured), who’s worked in assembly and quality control for nine years, had the opposite opinion. “I don’t like it because it’s going to be too far away,” she said. She said it might take her 45 minutes to get to the new location in wintertime.

Rivera said she’s also not looking forward to working in a larger facility, where everything will happen in one big room. At the current plant, work takes place on five floors, creating a “smaller workplace,” she said.

“That sucks also,” said a man who works in shipping. He said he’s not excited about adding more time to his commute from Bridgeport.

CEO Moon said almost all his employees, including those who live in New Haven, drive to work. “I don’t think we’ll lose anybody” in the move, he said.

Fort Knox

Meanwhile, a block over at Cody’s Diner, Troy Bacon was positively bullish about the prospects of a new residential community inhabiting the C. Cowles complex, as he channeled a potential developer.

What about the highway? he was asked. Right now I-91 and I-95 ramps practically slam into the Cowles building, filling the air with noise and pollution.

Those ramps are coming down with the completion of the new Q Bridge project, Bacon noted.

He cited the fate of another factory across Chestnut Street from C. Cowles. It has been reborn as the successful Sage Arts condo complex (pictured).

Think of all the people working at Yale-New Hospital, Bacon said. Right now they contend with a “traffic nightmare” coming off the bridge into downtown. They can scoot to work hassle-free along Water Street from a renovated historic C. Cowles condo, he said.

“You’re a stone’s throw from Wooster Street. Downtown. There’s no crime; we’re like Fort Knox here,” he added.

Moon said he hasn’t begun to think about the future of the New Haven compound. He’ll probably sell it, he said. But it’ll probably be another year and a half before the company has finished transferring divisions to North Haven.

Nemerson said he believes Bacon has a good point about the complex’s residential potential. The task of shepherding that potential to reality now falls on his administration.

Thomas MacMillan contributed reporting.

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posted by: Pedro Soto on May 28, 2014  3:47pm

Its a shame that C. Cowles is moving out of the city, but modern manufacturing is definitely an activity that best occurs on a single floor, and not multi-level.

The Marlin factory is actually a fantastic buy, and the end result is the consolidation of manufacturing from outside of CT to the area, so for the region, this is a plus.

I also think that a conversion to housing would be a really great use for the building. While it’s disappointing that there was no location large enough for them to relocate in the city, the end result for New Haven and the region should be a net positive.

posted by: Threefifths on May 28, 2014  3:49pm

Nemerson said he believes Bacon has a good point about the complex’s residential potential. The task of shepherding that potential to reality now falls on his administration.

Give me a break.This is a done deal.Like I said get mad at me if you want. Keep sleeping New Haven.Gentrification Vampires are coming.

posted by: Atticus Shrugged on May 28, 2014  5:23pm

I’m thoroughly dissatisfied with Mr. Nemerson’s comments and his lack of concern.  Either he doesn’t get the beauty of having a bird in hand, or he is trying to cover up his failure to get them to stay.  Regardless, he is upbeat and I presume he will work tirelessly to get the project renovated.

Before we jump to the conclusion of “more housing” there really should be a feasibility study done.  The city literally has hundreds, close to a thousand, apartments coming on line in the near future.  There are still high end condos vacant in certain downtown areas, and a few high end rentals at 360 State that have been dormant for a few months.  New Haven needs rentals but the right mixture thereof.

@Threefifths, not everything fits even remotely close within the definition of gentrification.  No one lived on the perimiter of roughly half of the building.  The other parts were already occupied by in large by middle-class or affluent people.  Not sure how the continuation of that trend has pushed anyone out of previously nonexistent housing.

posted by: Gretchen Pritchard on May 28, 2014  5:41pm

That’s quite a striking photo of the ramps missing the building by inches.  I’ve always figured they were deliberately designed to spare that building, even though the designers were happy to wipe out whole neighborhoods of residences, and (till citizen outrage stopped them) the historical Mishkan Israel synagogue (now the Educational Center for the Arts), and huge swaths of Edgewood and East Rock Parks.

posted by: robn on May 28, 2014  6:29pm

What does it tell you when manufacturing flees this city for facilities 5 minutes down the road? It tells me that it’s too expensive and troublesome to do business in New Haven.

posted by: Threefifths on May 28, 2014  7:03pm

@Atticus Shrugged

What you have to understand is that gentrification does not happen over night.It is in steps.Look at Harlem and In brooklyn a area call ft.green clinton hill Park Slope Bedford–Stuyvesant.Gentrification started in 1980 and in Brooklyn it started in 1995.I know this for a fact,because I have family there in both Harlem and Brooklyn.I have friends who lost there homes and apartments went the nets Barclays Center went up.Like I said keep your eyes open.The signs are there in front of you.

posted by: Esbey on May 28, 2014  9:29pm

@robin and @atticusshrugged—modern manufacturing simply does not take place in multi-floor buildings and it says nothing bad about New Haven or the current administration that C. Cowles has decided to move into the mid-20th century, only decades late.  The jobs are not lost to the regional economy, and in fact more jobs are coming in from MA. 

@atticusshrugged—why does the city have to study whether the market will demand more housing?  That is the job of private developers who put up their own money and bear the consequences.  They can figure out what part of the market is yet underserved.  My guess is that this would be a good place for apartments or condos that undercut downtown prices, but we will see if developers agree.

posted by: MatthewNemerson on May 28, 2014  11:03pm

NHI readers should be a bit less hard on our town.

C.Cowles on Water Street is in an ancient, inefficient building. The opportunity to move to the Marlin building in North Haven is a great opportunity for this fine company and its workers.  Imagine if the firm moved to Tennessee or even Springfield Ma. - now that would be bad news. 

In 50% of the cities in America the Marlin factory off exit 10 of I-91 (8 miles or a 12 minute car trip from the current site) would be in the same town as the site on Chestnut Street. 

Having said that, yes it is a crime that it can take an hour to cover those same miles by bus. That’s a project we need to tackle and correct.

As a thought exercise consider the factory site that Marlin itself left decades ago to move to North Haven - the wonderful maze of offices at the corner of Willow and Mitchell Drive across from the new East Rock School and the Mill River.

We cherish that historic part of our town more in its current use than we would if it were still churning our steel and wood shotguns. Someday we will redevelop the adjoining Rockbestos building and complete the reuse of that once grimy complex. 

We have to be on the right side of history and support those few remaining industrial firms that are growing and investing in our community.

This is not about New Haven failing - A one story open span building will trump a six story, columns at 20 feet site anywhere - even China or North Carolina.

Yes, we need to equalize taxes across the region - or state. But, I’ll bet taxes are a very small piece of the decision that Larry Moon is making.

Let’s all fight to make New Haven more competitive in many ways (A better airport for starters). 

One story factories that can compete with southern states won’t often be located in New Haven again, but wherever they are - they ought to be near great New Haven neighborhoods filled with talented people.

The old C.Cowles building will be vital for another 100 years in some new role.

posted by: DingDong on May 28, 2014  11:52pm

My rent keeps going up. The more apartments they build the better.

posted by: Bradley on May 29, 2014  5:37am

Gretchen, I suspect you are right about the original design for the highway; I.know that the current Q Bridge project was designed to avoid the building.

Robn, what it tells you is that no one conducts manufacturing in five-story buildings if they have any choice.

3/5ths gentrification and displacement are taking place in Harlem and parts of Brooklyn. But you should read the current edition of the on-line Atlantic Magazine, which has a nice piece showing that nationally the vast majority of neighborhoods that were low-income a generation ago are still low income and that far more formerly middle-class neighborhoods have become impoverished than vice versa.

posted by: robn on May 29, 2014  6:21am

3/5,

Once again you’re method is “ready, shoot, aim.” This isn’t gentrification, it’s failed development policy at the seat of our local government. Our govt is too big, our regulatory hurdles too high, our taxes too high, and businesses with jobs that don’t require a PHD don’t want to be here.

posted by: Threefifths on May 29, 2014  7:19am

posted by: robn on May 29, 2014 7:21am

3/5,

Once again you’re method is “ready, shoot, aim.” This isn’t gentrification, it’s failed development policy at the seat of our local government. Our govt is too big, our regulatory hurdles too high, our taxes too high, and businesses with jobs that don’t require a PHD don’t want to be here.

It is both gentrification and development policy.Again look at downtown New Haven.Robn are you saying that you do not see no signs at all of gentrification in new haven and people being moved out.

posted by: Threefifths on May 29, 2014  7:49am

posted by: Bradley on May 29, 2014 6:37am

3/5ths gentrification and displacement are taking place in Harlem and parts of Brooklyn. But you should read the current edition of the on-line Atlantic Magazine, which has a nice piece showing that nationally the vast majority of neighborhoods that were low-income a generation ago are still low income and that far more formerly middle-class neighborhoods have become impoverished than vice versa.

I read the story.But what the story fail to tell you is that those low income neighborhoods are where public housing is.In fact some of those public housing are in primary real estate areas.But the gentrification vampires have a plan.

New York to use public housing and school property for luxury high-rises
By Sandy English
1 March 2013

Developers will be allowed to build over three million square feet of market-rate apartments. The property will be leased for 99 years to building owners, and payments to NYCHA will be frozen for the first 35 years. The property is currently occupied by parking lots,  playgrounds, and other open areas inside of and adjacent to the developments.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/01/nych-m01.html

The same is coming for New Haven.Keep a eye on South Street property.

My bad.The gentrification vampires are now looking at West Haven.Check at how UNH is buying up property like yale.In fact I was told like yale UNH has a street that was sold to them by the city and the people had to move out.

posted by: robn on May 29, 2014  8:14am

I’m not saying the Wooster Sq location was appropriate for modern manufacturing. What I’m saying is that losing the company to another town is losing; period. There are sites in New Haven that could take a plant this big (Simkins) and even pre-existing buildings ready to go…for instance…

Here’s Marlin in NH
http://goo.gl/maps/vlspC

Here’s the empty St Gobain plant on Grand Ave
http://goo.gl/maps/hj5BB

posted by: robn on May 29, 2014  8:17am

Oh I’m sorry, that was a different ultra huge facility ready to use…here’s St Gobain…

http://goo.gl/maps/XF0pU

posted by: LookOut on May 29, 2014  8:37am

Bring on the Gentrification Vampires!  Nicer streets, less crime, reduction in vacant lots and buildings, more arts…..I fail to see why the city should fight to stand still while the world is rapidly moving forward.

posted by: robn on May 29, 2014  8:40am

3/5,

Stop it. New constructions like 360 State and the Ninth Square and the Landino project on College aren’t displacing anyone. As for rehabilitation of old housing stock, that’s just what it is; rehabilitation. New Haven has vast tracks of decrepit housing and its a shame that anyone has to live in it. If people want to buy houses and fix them up they should have our blessing. Your fantasy of an immobilized population of poor people living in decrepit conditions is quite frankly disturbing.

posted by: Threefifths on May 29, 2014  10:26am

posted by: LookOut on May 29, 2014 9:37am

Bring on the Gentrification Vampires!  Nicer streets, less crime, reduction in vacant lots and buildings, more arts…..I fail to see why the city should fight to stand still while the world is rapidly moving forward.

Do not drink the kool-Aid.

On the surface, gentrification may outwardly reduce crime, yet it also frequently stimulates crime in a major way. Urban homesteading may unleash burglary, break-ins, stick ups and even murders especially prior to an area’s full gentrification.


Gentrify This? The Dark Side of Gentrification


http://rowanfreepress.com/2012/11/22/gentrify-this-the-dark-side-of-gentrification/

posted by: Atticus Shrugged on May 29, 2014  10:38am

@Esbey,

It is only partially true that the developer bears the risk.  Many deals these days are done with city-funded tax breaks (a la Ninth Square) that can continually come back to haunt the City.  They are also done in no small part with city grants, federal loans and guarantees, and state incentives.  Long gone are the days where deals are done in isolation.

Moreover, if the director of economic development is going to take a stance and says that he wants something.  We need to as a city make sure it is not only feasible but a worthwhile venture.  Mr. Nemerson is bright and capable and I’m sure he will run this for the benefit of all of New Haven.

With that said, if 700 or more apartments come online within the span of 2 or 3 years, that might have a very profound impact on the city and the current deals it is locked into.  It might change the feasibility of some tax incentives it already gave away.  The City has to absolutely be concerned with these things if it seeks to have any influence over deal making or attracting developers while balancing its budget.

posted by: Threefifths on May 29, 2014  10:40am

posted by: robn on May 29, 2014 9:40am

3/5,

Stop it. New constructions like 360 State and the Ninth Square and the Landino project on College aren’t displacing anyone. As for rehabilitation of old housing stock, that’s just what it is; rehabilitation. New Haven has vast tracks of decrepit housing and its a shame that anyone has to live in it. If people want to buy houses and fix them up they should have our blessing. Your fantasy of an immobilized population of poor people living in decrepit conditions is quite frankly disturbing.


You need to come out of your fantasy.I never said people living in decrepit conditions. I said people are being displaced. Are you trying to say there is not Gentrification being done in new haven at all and that no people in new haven are being displaced.

posted by: robn on May 29, 2014  11:26am

3/5,

What’s “displaced”? If you can’t afford the rent someplace; move. If you don’t want to move, buy the property. If you don’t like either of those choices, move to some place where housing is given out for free, because that’s apparently what you want.

posted by: TheMadcap on May 29, 2014  12:27pm

@DingDong

While rent is a factor of many things, size of the unit, property taxes, availability of housing, really outside of size property values set the floor and are the largest secondary factor, so none of are going to see a rent decrease, quite possibly the opposite.

posted by: absolutmakes on May 29, 2014  12:30pm

I’d love to see this be continued as an industrial property, but if it’s inadequate to meet current needs then I’d be happy to see it turned into housing or office space.

@3/5 - It’s very difficult to seriously consider your comments when it seems they are all basic variations of the same theme. However, it’s quite impressive how you relate nearly every story/topic to gentrification.

@Matthew Nemerson - So, conversely, in 50% of the cities in America the Marlin factory off exit 10 of I-91 (8 miles or a 12 minute car trip from the current site) would be in a different town as the site on Chestnut Street. That doesn’t mean much.

Industry & jobs move out of New Haven - bad. Industry & jobs stay in metro New Haven area - good.

I wish you good luck in meeting with the property owner and finding a good long-term use of the building.

posted by: WestvilleAdvocate on May 29, 2014  1:58pm

“Dillon is worried. She cited the lack of adequate mass transit to suburban jobs. (Read about that here.) “Our people cannot get to those jobs,” Dillon argued. “Even in New Haven the west side is a transit desert. We should ask the state and industry beginning with UI and Cowles to kick in for transit. It worked in Montana —some towns have free transit.””

This quote by Dillon is the issue with this State and its leaders in a nutshell and why businesses are fleeing this state.  Businesses are already being taxed up the wazoo.  If it isn’t noncompetitive, absurdly high income tax, the high payroll taxes, high insurance, high workers’ comp (the highest in the country)tax & insurance, high local taxes in cities, and higher-than-average benefits prices per employee (compared to other states)...and Dillon thinks companies should now “kick in for transit”.  Is she kidding!?

Its really very simple.  As a business owner who relocated a factory from a city to the burbs in the past decade I’m speaking from going through the exercise of evaluating pros and cons of cities vs. burbs.  The politicians need to figure out how to make local taxes more fair and even for all towns (mill rates).  This will end up helping manufacturing.  If we can move to a burb that has a mill rate 1/2 of the cities, that is 1/2 the tax we have to pay on our machinery and equipment, not to mention building property taxes are usually less in the burbs too.

The politicians need to look at regional taxes again (county or state).  I truly believe this will equalize the entire state and may bring some stability to our cities.

But please don’t ask companies to give anything else for free Rep Dillon.  I’m not sure people are actually grounded in the reality of how much it actually costs to employ someone or to keep the lights turned on in a factory.  Stop making the companies the bad guys.

posted by: Bradley on May 29, 2014  8:01pm

3/5ths, are you suggesting that the crime rate in Harlem is higher now that it has undergone substantial gentrification than it was 20 years ago when there very few middle or upper income people living there?  If you are, I have a bridge you might want to buy.

posted by: RhyminTyman on May 30, 2014  6:52am

Everyone is jumping on 3/5 here. Rightfully so. 3/5 since your bogey man doesn’t hold water let’s try this. What would you do with the building? Keep in mind it is woefully out of date to attract another business, the highway is coming down, and residents in that area are already fairly middle class.

posted by: Threefifths on May 30, 2014  7:45am

posted by: Bradley on May 29, 2014 9:01pm

3/5ths, are you suggesting that the crime rate in Harlem is higher now that it has undergone substantial gentrification than it was 20 years ago when there very few middle or upper income people living there?  If you are, I have a bridge you might want to buy.

Where can I buy the Bridge.

Harlem Crimes

http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Harlem-New_York/5131/crime/

posted by: Threefifths on May 30, 2014  7:59am

posted by: RhyminTyman on May 30, 2014 7:52am

Everyone is jumping on 3/5 here. Rightfully so. 3/5 since your bogey man doesn’t hold water let’s try this. What would you do with the building? Keep in mind it is woefully out of date to attract another business, the highway is coming down, and residents in that area are already fairly middle class

I would try to get a program like this for the Building.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/realestate/the-truly-affordable-new-york-apartment.html?_r=0

My bad.When you say middle class what do you mean.

If 80% of us are in or near poverty than THERE IS NO MIDDLE CLASS.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/16/1228186/-If-80-of-us-are-in-or-near-poverty-than-THERE-IS-NO-MIDDLE-CLASS#

posted by: RhyminTyman on May 30, 2014  8:32am

3/5 you can’t help yourself can you? Did you actually read the article the extremist Daily Kos is pointing to? 80% of American’s aren’t near property. 80 percent will either be on unemployment, or other government subsidies at somepoint in there life. Well guess what people lose jobs and eventually find new ones. They may need unemployment benefits to help them out. If a person work until they are 65, they are probably going to experience a lay off. You have yet to show gentrification has been a problem or will become a problem in New Haven. You have shown a real knack for sensualizism, a lack of reading comprehension, and a general malice towards anyone who has any discenary income

posted by: absolutmakes on May 30, 2014  8:58am

@ 3/5 - The Trulia crime stats don’t actually support your argument.

After a quick search, here are crime rates in Harlem neighborhoods from 1993 - 2010 (sorry, couldn’t find 1994 - 2014). According to this, most crime rates in 2010 are about 1/4 to 1/3 of what they were in 1993.

East Harlem: http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/crime-safety-report/data-explorer?neighborhood_id=20
Central Harlem: http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/crime-safety-report/data-explorer?neighborhood_id=19
West Harlem: http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/crime-safety-report/data-explorer?neighborhood_id=18

@NewHavenIndependent - seems like there’s an article/story in waiting here…Exploring Gentrification in New Haven

posted by: robn on May 30, 2014  9:42am

R&T and ABSLTMKS,

Thank you. I also have a finely tuned BS detector but I just can’t seem to keep up with this most prolifically incorrect fraction.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on May 30, 2014  11:18am

Crime steadily increased in most US cities beginning in the 1960s. The years between 1985 and 1990 saw an enormous uptick in crime in cities, which eventually settled and decline by the mid-1990s. Today, overall crime is on par with the level it was in the early 1980s. I tend to view the period between 1985 and 1995 as an aberration that was quelled partially due to law enforcement efforts, reinvestment in cities, public housing reform (Hope VI), and a number of other factors that occurred both naturally and due to specific public policies.

Comparing crime statistics from around 1990 to today or any other time period can be misleading because 1990 statistics were so extreme.

Comparative Cities Violent Crime Rate 1985-2011:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/107597515.jpg

Comparative Cities Property Crime Rate 1985-2011:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/107597513.jpg

Comparative Cities Crime Rate 1990-2002:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Giuliani_crime_rate.png

posted by: Threefifths on May 30, 2014  12:52pm

posted by: absolutmakes on May 30, 2014 9:58am

@ 3/5 - The Trulia crime stats don’t actually support your argument.

After a quick search, here are crime rates in Harlem neighborhoods from 1993 - 2010 (sorry, couldn’t find 1994 - 2014). According to this, most crime rates in 2010 are about 1/4 to 1/3 of what they were in 1993.

Did you know that those reports are from CompStat.Did you know that Compstat review of the NYPD’s statistics and analysis demonstrate that the misclassification of reports may have an appreciable effect on certain reported crime rates.Did you know that harlem was one of them.

http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2013/07/03/compstat/

posted by: RhyminTyman on May 30, 2014 9:32am

3/5 you can’t help yourself can you? Did you actually read the article the extremist Daily Kos is pointing to? 80% of American’s aren’t near property. 80 percent will either be on unemployment, or other government subsidies at somepoint in there life. Well guess what people lose jobs and eventually find new ones. They may need unemployment benefits to help them out. If a person work until they are 65, they are probably going to experience a lay off. You have yet to show gentrification has been a problem or will become a problem in New Haven. You have shown a real knack for sensualizism, a lack of reading comprehension, and a general malice towards anyone who has any discenary income.

Again are you and others saying you see no signs of gentrification in New haven.

posted by: Threefifths on May 30, 2014  12:58pm

@absolutmakes

What are you doing trying to cover up like NYPD?

This is from the same website you went to.

central harlem.

Violent crime, however, remains a concern. Even though murders dropped in 2010 from 11 to eight in the 32nd Precinct, which covers the northern part of the neighborhood, they jumped from two to six in the 28th Precinct.

Also in the 28th, rapes increased in 2010 from nine to 13; robberies rose by 6 percent, to 254; while shootings were up by 33 percent, to 20.

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/crime-safety-report/manhattan/central-harlem

posted by: RhyminTyman on May 30, 2014  1:34pm

3/5 I am not going to keep going in circles with you. It is not up to me to prove there is gentrification. It is up to you to prove it exist and is a problem. Do you understand how skeptism works? You don’t get to make claims and say go ahead now prove they are wrong. Also no rebuttal lie you were spreading about 80% of American’s living in poverty.

posted by: Threefifths on May 30, 2014  3:16pm

posted by: RhyminTyman on May 30, 2014 2:34pm

3/5 I am not going to keep going in circles with you. It is not up to me to prove there is gentrification. It is up to you to prove it exist and is a problem. Do you understand how skeptism works? You don’t get to make claims and say go ahead now prove they are wrong. Also no rebuttal lie you were spreading about 80% of American’s living in poverty.

But I have show proof.Did you see this.

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/the_cage_hearing/

Also no rebuttal lie you were spreading about 80% of American’s living in poverty.

I got this from The New york times and CBS.

80 percent of U.S. adults face near-poverty, unemployment, survey finds

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/80-percent-of-us-adults-face-near-poverty-unemployment-survey-finds/

80% of AMERICANS WILL FACE NO JOBS, POVERTY AND

http://youtu.be/e_NbWzPv6Qg

posted by: RhyminTyman on May 30, 2014  4:59pm

3/5 there you go again. Removing blight isn’t gentrification. No one is being forced out. 50% of the units will be affordable. That is more than reasonable as a matter of fact that is almost a housing project. You still won’t tell the true about that article. Read it one in four will be unemployed, live near property or receive welfare. I am sorry to have to break this too you most people will have a layoff at somepoint. That doesn’t make you not middle class.

posted by: Threefifths on May 30, 2014  7:38pm

posted by: RhyminTyman on May 30, 2014 5:59pm

3/5 there you go again. Removing blight isn’t gentrification. No one is being forced out. 50% of the units will be affordable.

What do you call affordable.You need to get out and speak to people.The Middle Class Gone!!!!  A report by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released a few years ago lays out how much the income gap has grown. The report looked at income growth in different demographics between 1979 and 2007. For that period, the income of the top 1% of earners grew by a staggering 275%. Meanwhile, the income for the next highest 19% of earners grew by only 60%. For the middle 60% of earners, income grew by approximately 40%, and for the bottom 20% of earners the gains were only 18%.LIke I said keep sleeping.

posted by: Bradley on May 31, 2014  1:27pm

3/5ths, would well to do people move to Harlem if they thought it was crime-ridden? Would they stay there if it was in fact unsafe?

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