DNA-Testing Grant Back On The Table

Markeshia Ricks PhotoAfter a detailed explanation of how it works and how it protects children’s rights, a Yale University research project connected to the genetic testing of some students is back in good standing with at least two members of the Board of Education.

Board members Mayor Toni Harp and Joe Rodriguez, co-chairs of the Board of Ed’s Learning and Teaching Committee, heard that presentation Wednesday from the New Haven Lexinome Project. They heard how many students are participating, the rigorous consent process, how their genetic information is protected, and what kind of intervention they’re receiving. Then Rodriguez and Harp agreed to forward a recommendation to the full board to accept $600,000 from the project and have it continue.

The presentation was delivered by Jeffrey R. Gruen, the principal investigator for the project and professor of pediatrics, genetics and investigative medicine at the Yale School of Medicine. He presented at the Board of Ed’s 54 Meadow St. headquarters just a week and a half after Board members voted unanimously to table accepting the grant. They made that decision amid concerns over the historic abuses of minority communities for scientific gains and even profit. (Read more about that here.)

The New Haven Lexinome Project studies the genetics of the common reading disability dyslexia with an eye toward developing a simple and inexpensive test that would help identify it early and what kinds of interventions work best. With the explicit consent of their parents, a saliva sample is collected from the children in the study.

Gruen explained to board members that the saliva sample taken from students is not used specifically to diagnose dyslexia or some other reading problem in the children currently in the study. Instead, students who score in the bottom 20 percent or below on the Benchmark Assessment System, or BAS, testing in the first grade are the students in the study who are identified as “at-risk” for dyslexia. At least half of the 477 students in the study are not considered at-risk and have a better score on the BAS and do not receive an intervention.

“It’s not used to label or diagnose students in any way,” he said. The DNA will be analyzed toward the completion of the study to test the hypothesis in future studies that genetics can play a role in informing more individualized, precise interventions for students with learning disabilities, he said.

He noted that only the study researchers who work directly with the participants have access to the de-identified data, which means it can’t be connected to a particular individual. The DNA samples are archived in Gruen’s lab and can’t be sent out, or sold to other entities for use in other studies.

Seven years after the study ends all ID numbers for individual participants will be destroyed, permanently separating the data and the participant.

The study also doesn’t change student’s DNA, and no cell lines are created from the DNA, he said.

Cell lines can’t be created because the preservative in the collection tubes destroys potential cells in the saliva on contact and the DNA extraction process destroys any residual cells, Gruen said. Every year parents get a summary report of their child’s performance on assessments throughout the study that they can share with their child’s teacher if they choose.

Dyslexia is a common, genetic reading disability that affects both girls and boys equally, though girls often go undiagnosed. Fifty percent of students are undiagnosed, Gruen said. Researchers know that 75 percent of children with dyslexia who receive high-quality intervention before fourth grade see significant improvement, reading on grade level just two years later. But there is a quarter of children who don’t respond to that intervention, he said. And 75 percent of children who receive that intervention late in say middle and high school also don’t see improvements.

Gruen said the Lexinome Project is trying to figure out if genetic variants can tell early on which kids will need help, and what kind of help would work best, hopefully pushing the percentages of children who see improvement up to 80 percent or more.

“No one’s ever done these studies before on any demographic or in any country,” he said. “We’re the first and we’re doing it right here in New Haven.”

Intervention

Two groups of New Haven public school children, chosen in 2015 and 2016, have been in the seven-year longitudinal study since they were in the first grade and are being followed through fifth grade. Harp and Rodriguez learned Wednesday that 477 students are from four schools—Strong, Columbus, Bishop Woods and Roberto Clemente.

The parents of the children in the study had to endure a four-step consent process that includes the review of a nine-page consent form that researchers must be sure participants understand. It is provided in both English and Spanish and bilingual study personnel are available to assist. Parents also know they can withdraw from the study at any time. If they withdraw their child, all the information connected to that child is destroyed.

They also learned that the grant pays for the full salaries of six public schoolteachers. They provide the high-quality reading interventions that children in the study are receiving, Gruen said.

This is the fourth year of the grant. Each year it has come before the board for approval. The memorandum of understanding that governs the partnership between the school system and Yale has been before the board at least twice. In the last three years, the district has received a total of just over $1.5 million to cover those teacher salaries.

That intervention comes in the form of two intensive intervention programs: Reading Recovery and Empower.

All the at-risk students in the study get Reading Recovery, an intervention chosen by NHPS, in the first grade. It provides between 12 and 20 weeks of one-on-one reading instruction. In second grade, the students also receive help from a teacher trained in Empower, which teaches them strategies for interpreting words they’ve never encountered. They work with teachers like Gina Algilani in small groups for 45 minutes to an hour every day throughout the school year. Gruen said it provides 70 to 100 hours of contact for the year.

Algilani, who works at Strong School, said she’s seen the techniques be “extremely successful” in helping children learn how to break down words to increase their vocabulary and learn to read long stories.

Lynn Brantley, the district’s curriculum supervisor for reading, said Strong School and the three others were chosen because they were high needs schools that didn’t have many resources.

The 57 children in the first study group who have been identified as at-risk and receive Empower saw a 32 percent improvement in their reading skills over similar students who don’t receive that intensive intervention, according to Gruen. He noted that the students in the group mirror the school district when it comes to gender, race, and ethnicity.

Sustainability

Several people who came to the meeting alarmed about the possibility of genetic testing in schools left impressed. They said they hope such interventions will make their way to all the district’s elementary schools.

Parent Kirsten Hopes-McFadden was one of those people.She said she’d initially come to the meeting concerned that the school system had given Yale carte blanche in the genetic testing of students with no concern for what the university might do with the information or how it might be used to label students. She left satisfied that that was not the case and she was even impressed.

“The program sounds excellent,” she said. “I think the community outcry is around the DNA testing. I’m satisfied that the cells are destroyed and that they’re not identified so that even the people who are looking at it don’t know who it applies to. I think that needed to be clarified.”

She said had one of her sons, now a high school student, been young enough, she might have considered opting into the study — but only after going through the consent process and feeling sure she understood everything.

The long-term sustainability of the interventions provided by the study, particularly the Empower program, is a concern because of the expense.

“We’ve got two more years,” Mayor Harp noted. “What happens after that?”

Gruen said that depends on the funding. The project currently receives the majority of its money from a private foundation grant. The National Health Institutes also provides a small grant. The project is trying to leverage additional grants. He said his group is trying to figure out how to move forward and to disseminate what they learn from the interventions beyond the four schools.

Harp said she felt comfortable making a recommendation to her colleagues on the board in favor of the grant now that she’d heard the details. She said the information that was provided to the Finance and Operation Committee, which heard the item before it was presented at the last board meeting, wasn’t sufficient and some members were just hearing about it for the first time.

“Evidently it had been passed by previous boards without much discussion,” she said. “Maybe they got better information that we weren’t given.”

Board member Joe Rodriguez said given that he’d been on the board only since March, the information was completely new to him.

“I’m not a member of the Finance and Operations Committee, nor is the mayor, so we didn’t attend that particular meeting and I was not privy to any of the questions or concerns or that information.”

“Unfortunately, the way the format is for our full board is it doesn’t allow for a detailed presentation,” he added.

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posted by: 1644 on July 19, 2018  8:53am

I am puzzled by the NHI’s assertion that minorities have been abused “for profit”.  The prior article mentions the Tuskegee syphilis project, which likely harmed participants by deterring them from getting actual treatment, but the project was a government, not a for-profit scheme.  It also mentions the HeLa cell line, which caused no harm to Ms. Lacks, and the scientist whose method kept her cells replicated gave them away, making no profit. Unmentioned were the human plutonium experiments,  scary to be sure, but not done for profit, and which ultimately seemed not to have harmed any of the subjects. https://fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/pubs/00326640.pdf.  The case of Ebb Cade is the most disturbing, yet there was no profit involved, at least monetary profit.

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 19, 2018  9:33am

Do Not Drink this Kool-AID.I would not trust this.

MEDICAL APARTHEID
The Dark History of Medical Experimentation on Black Americans From Colonial Times to the Present
by Harriet A. Washington

Medical ethicist and journalist Washington details the abusive medical practices to which African-Americans have been subjected.She begins her shocking history in the colonial period, when owners would hire out or sell slaves to physicians for use as guinea pigs in medical experiments. Into the 19th century, black cadavers were routinely exploited for profit by whites who shipped them to medical schools for dissection and to museums and traveling shows for casual public display. The most notorious case here may be the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, in which about 600 syphilitic men were left untreated by the U.S. Public Health Service so it could study the progression of the disease, but Washington asserts that it was the forerunner to a host of similar medical abuses. Among her numerous examples is the radical brain surgery performed by a University of Mississippi neurosurgeon on African-American boys as young as six who were deemed aggressive or hyperactive, a procedure he recommended for urban rioters after Watts

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/harriet-a-washington/medical-apartheid/

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 19, 2018  10:15am

Threefifths: There has been no greater white-protestant colonial “medical” intervention directed towards African-Americans than what the abortion industry has tragically accomplished with your race.  See the National Black Pro-Life Union for a reasonable presentation:

http://www.nationalblackprolifeunion.com/Margaret-Sanger-and-The-Negro-Project.html

posted by: elmcityresident on July 19, 2018  10:49am

why our babies always have to be the target of research my child is in a magnet school and will not be participating, why cant they do their testing in the ‘Burbs” !!! ???? cause they know those parent s aren’t having it so test the inner city

posted by: FacChec on July 19, 2018  12:05pm

I am shocked and dismayed that the Mayor who said ‘She said the information that was provided to the Finance and Operation Committee, which heard the item before it was presented at the last board meeting, wasn’t sufficient and some members were just hearing about it for the first time.
“Evidently it had been passed by previous boards without much discussion,” she said. “Maybe they got better information that we weren’t given.”
That the Mayor did not have more pertinent questions of the extensive presentation made by Jeffrey R. Gruen, the principal investigator for the project and professor of pediatrics, genetics and investigative medicine at the Yale School of Medicine. His presentation opened the door for many questions including whether a written detailed contract would be provided in compliance with the 2016 State of CT Public Act 16-189, concerning data privacy.

https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/SDE/Performance/Data-Collection/PublicAct16-189.pdf?la=en

The MOU the University and the BOE are currently acting under, is insufficient and contrary to the Law enforced by the State Dept of Education. With only two persons attending this meeting, none of whom are on the finance committee, does not meet the minimum smell test of a quorum. While the presentation sounds good to the unknowing persons/parents, many questions remain in order to justify the continuation of this highly expensive project which only employs six (6) public school teachers for 70 to 100 hours of contact per year, = $607,399.68 divided by six teachers= $101,000 divided by 100 hrs per/yr =10,000 per hour. For six teachers.

Heck, over paid BOE administrators don’t make anything like that, I bet they are pissed too.

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 19, 2018  12:11pm

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 19, 2018 10:15am
Threefifths: There has been no greater white-protestant colonial “medical” intervention directed towards African-Americans than what the abortion industry has tragically accomplished with your race.  See the National Black Pro-Life Union for a reasonable presentation:

http://www.nationalblackprolifeunion.com/Margaret-Sanger-and-The-Negro-Project.html

I know about these Knee-Grows.How come you never hear from them on the killing of people of color when it comes to the police?.


There has been no greater white-protestant colonial “medical” intervention directed towards African-Americans than what the abortion industry has tragically accomplished with your race.

AN OLD SCARE TACTIC RE-EMERGES

The token leaders to whom Hatcher is referring are a small but busy cadre of Black activists working in White-run anti-abortion organizations. For example, in late 2008, Pro-Life Unity hired a Black vice president, Samuel Mosteller,[9] and in January 2009, after years of failed attempts to reach out to African Americans, Georgia Right to Life hired Davis to spread the word that reproductive health care providers such as Planned Parenthood have a “mission to eliminate blacks from America.”[10]In the 1990s, when Alex Sanger, Margaret Sanger’s grandson and the chair of the International Planned Parenthood Council, ran Planned Parenthood New York City, he observed that the Black escorts working at the city’s clinics were particular targets of protesters, who would single them out and accuse them of committing genocide against their own people. Sanger sees the problem as originating in older splits in the various Black rights movements, which, he says, were often along gender lines, as Black women leaders demanded the ability to control their fertility while male leaders were more concerned about “the genocide issue.”[45]

Part One

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 19, 2018  12:21pm

Part Two.

MARGARET SANGER AND EUGENICS

“The argument has always been there,” says Alex Sanger,[60] Margaret Sanger’s grandson and the chair of the International Planned Parenthood Council—echoing other leaders who can’t remember a time when accusations of racism weren’t made against reproductive-rights activists.When Sanger began her work, Black communities were ignored by the medical establishment. So, from early on, Sanger’s clinics in Harlem were welcomed by esteemed black leaders of the day including W.E.B. Du Bois and Mary McLeod Bethune, the founder of the National Council of Negro Women. In 1939 Sanger founded the Negro Project, a birth control campaign for southern Blacks. As soon as it secured funding, the project was wrested from her control by the White men running the Birth Control Federation of America—a merger between Sanger’s Birth Control Clinical Research Bureau and the American Birth Control League—and by Robert Seibels, the chairman of the Committee on Maternal Welfare of the South Carolina Medical Association.

https://www.politicalresearch.org/2010/04/29/abortion-as-black-genocide-an-old-scare-tactic-re-emerges/

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 19, 2018  12:29pm

@Timothy G. ORourke Jr

This killed more African-Americans than abortion.

Christian Soldiers
The lynching and torture of blacks in the Jim Crow South weren’t just acts of racism. They were religious rituals.
By Jamelle Bouie

We can’t deny that lynching—in all of its grotesque brutality—was an act of religious significance justified by the Christianity of the day.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/02/jim_crow_south_s_lynching_of_blacks_and_christianity_the_terror_inflicted.html

posted by: Samuel T. Ross-Lee on July 19, 2018  1:37pm

@1644,

All profit is not directly monetary.  Professors receive financial benefits through research grants, promotions, book deals, and tenue.  Further, it is not yours to determine if any persons were “harmed” in research done on their bodies without their (or their family members’) consent.  The notion of harm, as it relates to Black people in America, is very subjectively applied by white people.  It is the persons’ involved who have the right to determine if they were harmed or not. In each case you named, the persons’ involved have incessantly made that claim.  It is a claim that you have neither the qualifications nor the standing to make.

The NHI’s presentation of one parent/teacher who is “impressed” by this proposal seems to be its subtle way of promoting it.  There have been no credible reasons given that the university cannot pitch its DNA stockpiling program in another district, using students from a race and culture that has not been historically raped for its body parts and health for the benefit of white researchers.  The negligible amount of money offered for the use of children’s DNA, the entire make-up of their lives, is insulting. 

Even as Yale offers explanations of how the DNA will be used, there will be no independent third party who can oversee what Yale will do with the specimens, now or in the future. 

I do not trust this campaign.  I urge others not to trust it either.

The Rev. Mr. Samuel T. Ross-Lee

posted by: Jill_the_Pill on July 19, 2018  2:00pm

Fac, you forgot there are 477 students.  Not all receiving services, but for those who do, that’s 70-100 hours each.

posted by: FacChec on July 19, 2018  2:21pm

@ Jill the Pill

You said “Fac, you forgot there are 477 students.  Not all receiving services, but for those who do, that’s 70-100 hours each.

I did not forget, According to the article, quote,” At least half of the 477 students in the study are not considered at-risk and have a better score on the BAS and do not receive an intervention.” The key word here is “half.” “Gruen said it provides 70 to 100 hours of contact for the year.” Not per student.

Besides the math is not based on dollars per student. The math is based on dollars per teacher.The number of students is always in flux based on testing.

Exorbitant amount of $ash.

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 19, 2018  2:33pm

Threefifths: “This killed more African-Americans than abortion.”

The article you cited lists 4000 deaths.  While deplorable, the statistic does not substantiate your claim when correlated with the aggregate aborted blacks.  Moreover, you implicitly intimate that it is okay to kill blacks via abortion but not for the motivations of Klan. In addition, your claim gives personhood to the aborted blacks, as African-Americans, who are people, are also who are being killed by abortion in your statement quoted above.  Murder is murder no matter how you look at it.

posted by: Samuel T. Ross-Lee on July 19, 2018  3:49pm

@Timothy G. ORourke Jr.,

The number of Black women who have exercised their right to choose can NEVER equal the number of babies that have been killed, injured, or otherwise maligned by a racist society bent on denying life and humanity to Black bodies.

There is no merit in your comparing this issue with abortion, despite your political leanings on that issue.

Rev. Ross-Lee

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 19, 2018  4:36pm

Reverend, Nice to hear from you!  I really have no idea, though, what you mean.  I, for one, have no idea who is bent on destroying black bodies in this society to anywhere the extent that the racial eugenicists have—if at all.  Also, there really is no reason to intimate my political leanings, as not only are all humans political by nature, even if we were perfect, as Aristotle would maintain, but I am an integralist, anyway.  I suspect you have no idea what that is but I will not be gratuitously didactic to one as credentialed as you and I will let you do your own research in finding out what that is if your so inclined.  Viva Christo Rey!

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 19, 2018  5:07pm

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 19, 2018 2:33pm

Moreover, you implicitly intimate that it is okay to kill blacks via abortion but not for the motivations of Klan.

A person has the right under the law to chose to have a abortion.The Ku Klux Klan dedicated itself to an underground campaign of violence against Black People including bombings of black schools and churches.

Horrific Crimes Committed By The KKK Between 1921 And 2016

. Tulsa Race Riots - Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1921

Between 21 and 200 Black people were murdered after residents began rioting when a Black man was accused of raping a White woman. Tulsa KKK founder W. Tate Brady participated in the riot.

16th Street Baptist Church Bombing That Killed Four Black School Girls - Birmingham, Alabama 1963

The KKK claimed responsibility for strategically placing bombs underneath the Black church just as Sunday school was coming to a close. The bombs later exploded and killed four Black schoolgirls between the ages of 11 and 14.

. Murder Of Medgar Evers - Jackson, Mississippi, 1963

Medgar Evers was a civil rights activist, husband and father who was assassinated by KKK member, Byron De La Beckwith, in his driveway while returning home from a meeting with NAACP lawyers.

Where was the Good Old Pro Life people at when this was going on?

Black Babies Used as Alligator Bait in Florida

It has been pretty well documented recently that, during slavery and into the 20th Century, black babies were used as alligator bait in North and Central Florida.The slaves who had babies, they would steal the babies during the course of the day, sometimes when their mothers weren’t watching… Some would be infants, some would be a year old; he said some would be toddlers. He said they would grab these children and take them down to the swamp and leave them in pens like little chicken coops.

Part One.

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 19, 2018  5:16pm

Part two

They would go down there at night, take these babies and… tie them up, put a rope around their neck and around their torso, around here, and tie it tight.

They’d be screaming… What they were doing would help them to chum the water. He said when they would throw the babies in tied to this rope, he said in a matter of minutes, he said, the alligators were on them. He said the alligator would clamp his jaws on that child. As a matter of fact, once he clamped on them he was really swallowed. He said you couldn’t see anything but the rope! Some would be infants, some would be a year old, toddlers.

How about the pro Life Groups that do arson, and bombings of abortion clinics and murder abortion doctors?

The Murderer Who Started a Movement
Michael Frederick Griffin’s killing of Dr. David Gunn ignited a war on abortion providers. He could soon be a free man.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/10/michael-frederick-griffin-killed-an-abortion-doctor-he-could-soon-be-a-free-man.html

Abortion has noting to do Medical Experimentation on Black Americans.

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 19, 2018  7:07pm

Threefifths,
I am continually baffled.  The law once said that slavery was licit and I do not know just how “underground” the Klan actually operated.  As far as Pro-lifers bombing abortion mills, well, that is an illogical anomaly of which no reasonable person could maintain as valid. As far as the rest, what is the point?  You never concede an irrational point.

posted by: 1644 on July 19, 2018  8:51pm

Timothy:  I am pro-abortion,  but to me, the logic of killing an abortionist makes perfect sense, if one believes unborn babies are full persons and abortions are murder (which I don’t).  If you had the ability to stop an SS soldier from killing Jews by killing him, would you stand by and just protest because killing the soldier was wrong?  Or would you act immediately to save more lives than you would take?  Would you stand by as the Dutch soldiers did in Bosnia, letting the Serbs massacre the Bosnian as Srebrenica?  Like the Belgians did in Rwanda?

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 19, 2018  10:08pm

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 19, 2018 7:07pm

I am continually baffled.  The law once said that slavery was licit and I do not know just how “underground” the Klan actually operated

Just read the history of the KKK.

As far as Pro-lifers bombing abortion mills, well, that is an illogical anomaly of which no reasonable person could maintain as valid. As far as the rest, what is the point?  You never concede an irrational point.

I only concede to a irrational point.When it is right.So far from what I see all of your points have been wrong.

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 20, 2018  5:55am

1644,

That is a subtle and sophisticated point for which the only answer is prudence.  For the sake of argument only, since the prevailing law would punish vigilantes, considering the logical construct you present is valid, one must protect his own life and that of his own family first and realize that he no way intends or cooperates with the evil of other people simply because his circumstances necessitate that he shares the same society as the evil-doers.  Besides, and again writing hypothetically, if he is taken from the society that he is trying to convert, he will have no chance at converting it.  Writing again in the third-person, pro-lifers, by their untiring persistence, now have a real chance to overturn Planned Parenthood v. Cassey.  Something of which they would never have the chance if they were all locked up because they decided to kill abortionists.

posted by: robn on July 20, 2018  6:22am

A close relative of mine struggled many years through school and bounced from college to college because of undiagnosed dyslexia. Any parent who opts out of something that might help their child is foolish. Complaints about not getting a “cut” under these circumstances is just plain greedy.

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 20, 2018  8:18am

Threefifths,

“I only concede to a irrational point.When it is right.So far from what I see all of your points have been wrong.”

You deferred to the standard of the law in agreeing that a woman has a right to take her own child’s life.  Moreover, this was your only argument When slavery was legal, one could similarly defer to the standard of the law and agree that slavery was morally right. You of all people know how unjust laws can be.  So, merely deferring to the law regarding a women’s legal position is not alike a slave owner compelling northern States to return his slaves. In both instances, it is irrational to appeal to the standard of the law when the law maintains intrinsically evil acts as valid.

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 20, 2018  10:00am

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 20, 2018 8:18am

You deferred to the standard of the law in agreeing that a woman has a right to take her own child’s life.  Moreover, this was your only argument When slavery was legal, one could similarly defer to the standard of the law and agree that slavery was morally right.

The Slavery Laws the Slave had no choice. Roe v. Wade is a Federal law which protected a woman’s right to choose an abortion if she wants to.In fact from what I have read about Roe v. Waderight to privacy. But the Court held that states do have an interest in ensuring the safety and well-being of pregnant women, as well as the potential of human life.So the law covers also women who are pregnant

My bad.How come most pro-life are ok with death penalty?

Acknowledging that the rights of pregnant women may conflict with the rights of the state to protect potential human life, the Court defined the rights of each party by dividing a pregnancy into three 12-week trimesters:

During a pregnant woman’s first trimester, the Court held, a state cannot regulate abortion beyond requiring that the procedure be performed by a licensed doctor in medically safe conditions.
During the second trimester, the Court held, a state may regulate abortion if the regulations are reasonably related to the health of the pregnant woman.
During the third trimester of pregnancy, the state’s interest in protecting the potential human life outweighs the woman’s right to privacy, and the state may prohibit abortions unless abortion is necessary to save the life or health of the mother.

Writing again in the third-person, pro-lifers, by their untiring persistence, now have a real chance to overturn Planned Parenthood v. Cassey

Again are you saying the women does not have the right to Choose?

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 20, 2018  10:35am

Threefifths:
Notes:
1.  You were using the law as a standard of rightness.
2.  A baby is innocent.  A person convicted of a capital crime is not.
3.  We will have to wait and see what the Court says.  Judge Ginsberg will soon be gone, as well.
4. Peace to you.

posted by: challenge on July 20, 2018  10:49am

Elm city resident you asked the first question that came to mind for me. The poor in the New Haven community have long been “lab rats” for Yale. Wow!! Back to the auction block only this time the bidder is willing to pay $600,000 for the sale of our children’s DNA. My God this is just unbelievable. Yes 1644, believe it or not the most vulnerable in this nation have long been abused for profit. Wondering why you act as though this is hogwash. There is overwhelming evidence of that fact for the 1600’s until date. Even the blind can see that.

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 20, 2018  4:18pm

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 20, 2018 10:35am

Threefifths:
Notes:
1.  You were using the law as a standard of rightness.

Is that not what we Go by?

2.  A baby is innocent.  A person convicted of a capital crime is not.

What does a Baby Being innocent has to do with a Abortion Last I looked abortions are performed not on a baby. .In fact from what I read.during the first and second trimesters when most abortions are performed, the fetus is not viable, meaning it could not survive on its own without being attached to the mother.


A person convicted of a capital crime is not.

From what I read.Pro-life means that You either value the sanctity of life or you don’t.

3.  We will have to wait and see what the Court says.  Judge Ginsberg will soon be gone, as well.

I agree that we should wait and see what the Court says.

posted by: 1644 on July 20, 2018  5:03pm

3/5’S: I find your reliance on the law as a standard of “right” curious.  Was the law right when it declared slaves, for census purposes at least, 3/5’s of a person?  Were Nat Turner and John Brown right when they acted against the law to oppose slavery?  Were slaves right to runaway from slavery, and operators of the underground railway right to help slaveowners’ property to abscond, in violation of the futile slave act, among other laws?  Were the Founding Fathers right to oppose their Sovereign King?  You have also spoken positively of Puerto Rican revolutionaries, who seek independence through violence, even though independence has never commanded anything close to a majority in PR.  Was the law right when it forbade Rosa Parks from sitting at the front of the bus?

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 20, 2018  6:05pm

Threefifths:

“Is that not what we Go by?”

If that is what we go by, then when the law said slavery was Okay it was.

“Last I looked abortions are performed not on a baby”

The baby is who is ABORTED not the mother.

“From what I read.Pro-life means that You either value the sanctity of life
or you don’t.”

If that be the case why did you write, “My bad.How come most pro-life are ok with death penalty?”

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 20, 2018  8:54pm

posted by: 1644 on July 20, 2018 5:03pm

3/5’S: I find your reliance on the law as a standard of “right” curious.  Was the law right when it declared slaves, for census purposes at least, 3/5’s of a person?

It is not curious.Laws of slavery effected People as a whole The law of Roe v. Wade is a law which protected a woman’s right to choose to have a abortion if she wants to have a abortion I notice you said.Timothy:  I am pro-abortion,  but to me, the logic of killing an abortionist makes perfect sense, if one believes unborn babies are full persons and abortions are murder (which I don’t).which means to me you are for the law Roe v. Wade which I am for. also.

You have also spoken positively of Puerto Rican revolutionaries, who seek independence through violence, even though independence has never commanded anything close to a majority in PR

If you know the history of Puerto Rico. you would know that FBI dossiers known as carpetas, gathered over a period of about 50 years. This trove of papers, made public in 2000, reveal a previously untold story about how the US government worked to undermine the growing Puerto Rican independence movement of the 1940s and ’50s.J. Edgar Hoover started sending squadrons of FBI agents down there to snoop and spy and marginalize any nationalist or any dissenting person on the island

Let us not also forget the _Piedras_massacre

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Río_Piedras_massacre

You also had The Ponce massacre was an event that took place on Palm Sunday, 21 March 1937, in Ponce, Puerto Rico, when a peaceful civilian march turned into a police shooting in which 19 civilians and two policemen were killed, and more than 200 others wounded.

And we can not forget Castro came power in Cuba by kicking outFulgencio Batista’s government.

So what you may think is revolutionaries, who seek independence through violence.They are fight for there freedom.

How come you do not see abortion as murder?

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 20, 2018  9:10pm

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 20, 2018 6:05pm

Threefifths:

“Is that not what we Go by?”

If that is what we go by, then when the law said slavery was Okay it was.

No it was not Ok.Again as I have said the law under Roe v. Wade is about a women right to Chose..

Last I looked abortions are performed not on a baby”

The baby is who is ABORTED not the mother.

What is the age of the Baby.Last I read there is no Baby.

From what I read.Pro-life means that You either value the sanctity of life
or you don’t.”

If that be the case why did you write, “My bad.How come most pro-life are ok with death penalty?”


Because most pro-Life people I know are Ok with death penalty.

Again answer my Question.Why is it that a Women does not have the right to right to Chose.?.

posted by: 1644 on July 22, 2018  5:25am

3/5"s. So, the fact that something is lawful, whether it is abortion or slavery, is not enough to make it right?  Laws change,  including was on abortion, slavery, and the status of black people.  If you want to say that prior to birth, the fetus is not a person, fine, and therefore should not have a right to life, fine.  But don’t say that it does not have a right to life because a court a says so, unless you also support the Dred Scott opinion. Mr. O’Rouke is saying that just as US law once held negroes as incapable of being citizens, but changed,  so too the law that views the fetus and not entitle to a right to life can change.

  As for my own pro-abortion views,  in large part they are a product of a gut reaction to two unpleasant outcomes.  One one hand,  we can rip apart a fetus, even one capable of independent thought and little different that a newborn.  One the other hand, we can force a woman to remain pregnant, and force her through all the burdens that pregnancy requires.  I, also, weigh the societal benefit of not having unwanted children and of population control.

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 22, 2018  5:16pm

posted by: 1644 on July 22, 2018 5:25am
3/5"s. So, the fact that something is lawful, whether it is abortion or slavery, is not enough to make it right?  Laws change,  including was on abortion, slavery, and the status of black people.  If you want to say that prior to birth, the fetus is not a person, fine, and therefore should not have a right to life, fine.  But don’t say that it does not have a right to life because a court a says so, unless you also support the Dred Scott opinion.

Also wrong when you say But don’t say that it does not have a right to life because a court a says so.The court says that a woman’s right to make her own decisions about her pregnancy deserves the highest level of constitutional protection.This sound to me that the women gets to choose to have a abortion Not the court.Again Read what Roe V Wade said.

Mr. O’Rouke is saying that just as US law once held negroes as incapable of being citizens, but changed,  so too the law that views the fetus and not entitle to a right to life can change.

He said We will have to wait and see what the Court says.  Judge Ginsberg will soon be gone, as well.

And I said.I agree that we should wait and see what the Court says.So your point?

My bad.I am continually baffled when you said Were Nat Turner and John Brown right when they acted against the law to oppose slavery? Then you said You have also spoken positively of Puerto Rican revolutionaries, who seek independence through violence, even though independence has never commanded anything close to a majority in PR.  Were not Nat Turner and John Brown not revolutionaries like the Puerto Rican revolutionaries?

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 23, 2018  5:13am

“[Mr. O’Rourke] said We will have to wait and see what the Court says. Judge Ginsberg
will soon be gone, as well.

And I said.I agree that we should wait and see what the Court says.So your
point?”

The point is: What do you believe?

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on July 23, 2018  10:28am

posted by: Timothy G. ORourke Jr. on July 23, 2018 5:13am

“[Mr. O’Rourke] said We will have to wait and see what the Court says. Judge Ginsberg
will soon be gone, as well.

And I said.I agree that we should wait and see what the Court says.So your
point?”

The point is: What do you believe?

I gave you My answer before.I stand with Roe V Wade.I am still wait for your answer on this.Are you saying the women does not have the right to Choose? and Why if you do not believe the women deos not have the right to choose?