New Haven Independent

posted by: elmcityresident on August 14, 2012  8:57am

I’m not a Hamden resident,I’m a New Haven resident but i totally understand what the Hamden residents are saying, eventually the new Brookside will be just like Monterey Place on dixwell avenue"CRIME and SHOOTINGS! It always sounds good in the beginning but always end up with crime, alot of the time they move the same people back into these new developments. I don’t think I’ll ever be interested in purchasing any of these new developments in new haven for this reason! #TEAMFENCE

posted by: Sammy on August 14, 2012  9:22am

Why are they pressing to force people in this neighborhood to also take down fences at the back of their yards? I don’t see why homeowners should have to open up their yards to people who openly admit they want to trespass through their property and near their homes.

The crime issue isn’t solved at all. Disappointing presentation - especially when you realize that the other two developments are still a mess, still very high in crime, and that the background checks are going to mean that we have the same problems there now. Lots of felons moving in to live with their relatives with nothing to do.

If this was in Wooster Square or East Rock, the Independent would be on the other side of this issue. But thanks for your coverage - dismissing the crime issue over and over again in favor of calling Hamden residents racists has done wonders to undermine HANH’s outreach effort.

I want Paul Bass to walk through these projects at night and tell us how safe he feels.

posted by: Pilfro on August 14, 2012  9:37am

“offering Hamdenites on one side the perception of safety,”

Its not a perception if crime went down after the fence went up is it NHI?

posted by: elmcityresident on August 14, 2012  9:41am

@sammy, their not calling Hamden residents racist,if you see the yale employee is a black male who i work with but in agreement new haven CAN’T make these people remove this fence!

posted by: ThinkBeforeTalk on August 14, 2012  10:16am

When and where, on August 29th in Hamden, is the next meeting? There were too many concerns that were not addressed by this meeting.

posted by: ThinkBeforeTalk on August 14, 2012  10:23am

Also, New Haven should put an ad on the front page of the register with the location and time of the next meeting. So many people from Hamden who will be affected by this did not know about this first meeting. It’s their town and they have a right to defend it.

posted by: Jones Gore on August 14, 2012  11:26am

Sammy no ones back yards faces the street. There is an actual street there. Pay attention.

posted by: Pedro Soto on August 14, 2012  11:38am

Are these fences in any way legal? Aren’t things like roadways governed by the SCRCOG?

I was under the impression that abandoning roads would have to get permission from the body.

And while the fence may make people safe, I’m kind of thinking that wirecutters make short work of it, and people who want to cause trouble will simply do that….

posted by: anonymous on August 14, 2012  12:11pm

“The whole make-up of the community [is] different, said DuBois-Walton. “What used to be here was all public housing,” she said.”

Demographics do change. Ironically, many of the “low income people” that the Hamden residents refer to are living in Hamden now.  Perhaps New Haven should build a wall to keep them out.

posted by: disconnect on August 14, 2012  12:47pm

“A senior citizen in the projects who needs to get her medicine has to take an all-day field trip by bus when there’s a Walgreen’s nearby in Hamden and inaccessible, she said.”

“Brookside Ave” to Walgreens at 1191 Dixwell is 2.6 mi along current roads (map). Assuming one could go directly to Woodin St., distance would be approximately 1.4 mi. What exactly is the benefit to this particular person?

posted by: elmcityresident on August 14, 2012  12:52pm

@anonymous,and there complaining about that also, the crime on 1st street, the recent killing in front of the convenience store on dixwell/hamden location

posted by: WestvilleAdvocate on August 14, 2012  1:44pm

Fences in people’s yards, assuming they are to zoning height restrictions (or if higher have the blessing of zoning approval) cannot be touched by law.  The fencing on public property, if on Hamden’s property, and if fitting in their zoning rules and regulations should be legal too.  I would imagine a lawsuit would end up going all the way to the highest court.

I understand the Hamden Residents’ concerns.  Its a housing project!  They aren’t exactly the safest places in this city, historically. 

Why on earth did the City of New Haven invest in building these things in no-mans land?  This entire site should have been bull-dozed and put on the market as lots to the highest bidder.  Putting low-income people in an area that they cannot access basic necessities is just cruel and is probably another reason why the area became so dangerous to start with.  Nothing to do, nowhere to go, etc….

The City of New Haven should be just as embarrassed for locating these places where they are as the City of Hamden’s reaction to the projects.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on August 14, 2012  2:53pm

Sammy,

Wooster Square has two public housing projects - Farnam Court and Winslow-Celentano - in addition to several low-to-moderate-income housing co-ops including Columbus Mall and Friendship Houses. There are no fences blocking off residents of subsidized housing from public streets in Wooster Square as is the case with the Hamden fence.
___

“Jack Kennelly, Hamden’s previous chief of police [...] predicted the completed housing project would generate daily traffic of between 600 and 800 cars.”

When this development is complete, there will be 433 housing units added to the existing 100 elderly/disabled units at Ribicoff Cottages and 150 family units at Westville Manor. Very few elderly, disabled, low-income or young people own cars. For those few with cars, many will continue using Springside and Wintergreen Avenues to commute. Where are these 600-800 new cars coming into Hamden going to be coming from? Is every single household now going to own more than one car and every car is going to use Woodin Street? Since when is a former police chief a legitimate source for traffic estimates?
___

Disconnect,

When you don’t have regular access to a car, distance matters - even a couple of miles - especially if the shortest route is half the distance of the next shortest route. Also keep in mind that the Woodin Street trip has sidewalks, houses lining the street and trees. The Fitch Street trip is largely desolate, partially lacking sidewalks, lined by Hamden’s trash dump, a cemetary, and parking facilities for SCSU with few shade trees.

Right now, this is the process for shopping at Walmart on a Saturday if you live in West Rock without a car:

-leave your house around 11:00am
-catch the 11:13am B bus on Brookside Avenue
-arrive at the Green around 11:40am
-catch the 11:48 D bus at the Green
-arrive at Walmart around 12:30pm

-catch the 1:48pm D bus back to Green after shopping
-arrive at the Green around 2:30pm
-catch the 2:40pm B bus at the Green
-arrive at Brookside Avenue around 3:10pm

If you have to take a bathroom or refreshment/meal break during the trip and you miss one of these buses, it is an additional 40-minute wait for the B bus and 15-minute wait for the D-bus. Add on more time if the shopping excursion includes multiple stores at multiple locations. A simple shopping trip can take anywhere from 4 to 8 hours.

posted by: elmcityresident on August 14, 2012  3:02pm

@WESTVILLADVOCATE, there’s always been housing in this area PROJECTS BEFORE ROCKVIEW AND BROOKSIDE, City of New Haven just redeveloped them but put alot of the same people back in there which will bring crime back in these areas, i know a person personally who lived in brookside(project) and now lives in the redesigned brookside and she also complained about the trash already over flowing, so lets see in a couple of years whats gonna happen.
What the City should’ve done was created these homes for young adults,families with not so great to excellent credit with a job history of working over 5yrs(work stability) who would appreciate these properties.

posted by: disconnect on August 14, 2012  4:24pm

Jonathan, thanks for responding. Can you show how that trip changes if the fence is down?

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on August 14, 2012  4:28pm

Nearly the entire area north of the 9 squares was part of the old commons, which was publicly owned land not sold off in colonial times.
http://images.library.yale.edu/nhsize3/YVRC/D4164/257849.jpg
Over the years, pieces were sold here and there for farms, development, or preservation. Beaver Hills, for instance, was originally part of the old common, then it became a 100-acre farm, then in the 1850s it was bought for use as a private rural park, then it was developed as a streetcar suburb beginning in 1900. A large part of the old commons is preserved in West Rock Park and Beaver Ponds Park. The rest of the land was largely sold off and developed with neighborhoods by World War 2, with the exception of West Rock, which was pretty much the only remaining area of the city’s old common that was still publicly owned, undevelopment and not a park.

In the early-to-mid 20th Century in the United States, there was a massive housing shortage particularly for returning GI’s. To remedy this problem the Federal government passed the Housing Act of 1934, the GI Bill of 1944, among other programs which provided funding for public housing, emergency housing, and suburbs.
Elm Haven, Farnam Court and Quinnipiac Terrace were New Haven’s first public housing projects created under the Housing Act of 1934 and built in the early 1940s. These projects involved government seizure of private property, demolition of said property and construction of new buildings. This process is expensive, time consuming and top-down.

For the next round of public housing that went up in the late 40s and early 50s, public officials chose rural sites that had seen little to no development and would therefore require minimal eminent domain seizures. These projects include McConaughy Terrace in West Hills from 1948, and Rockview Circle and Brookside both from 1951. Oriental Gardens - a housing co-op - was built in 1970, but was demolished and replaced by Westville Manor, which is public housing. Ribicoff Cottages also came later as elderly housing.

It is much easier and cheaper to locate publicly-owned buildings on publicly-owned and/or undeveloped land than it is to seize or purchase private property, demolish existing buildings and rebuilt anew.

West Rock was able to be demolished thanks to the Hope VI federal program, which provides federal money to housing authorities for the specific purpose of demolishing “failed” housing projects and replacing them with mixed-income neighborhoods.

posted by: ISR on August 14, 2012  6:15pm

This is sad and sorry.

Reminds me of the Warsaw Ghetto among other things.

For example: http://www.jimwestphoto.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=3&pid=384

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

“Something there is that doesn’t love a wall.”

(And good fences don’t make good neighbors.)

posted by: Ladyc5303 on August 14, 2012  6:55pm

They state all working class and no one on public assistance back ground checks etc.  Already there are people who live there right now that are indeed on public assistance and has been for years.  Moved out of one project to this new greatly improved project.  it is indeed just that a PROJECT!!!!! Define project?  I wonder where Chief Wydra lives North street?  I doubt that.  All those roads over 1,000 to 3,000 residence now open to that small community of home owners music bombing, horns blowing all times of the day and night no there will be no peace.  I can see that happening I will definitely put up for sale signs and get out.  Wait and see Get it all occupied and see what happens.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on August 14, 2012  7:46pm

Disconnect,

Removal of the fence would allow residents of West Rock to be within walking and biking distance of goods and services located on Dixwell Avenue in Hamden including the Walgreens and the D bus line. For the few people with cars, it will give them easier access to destinations to the North and West.

With the fence open, a resident could walk from their house at 11:00am on a Saturday and make it to the D bus stop at Dixwell and Putnam for the 11:32am stop and get to Walmart at 11:45am, which is 45 minutes sooner than having to go all the way Downtown to transfer. The fence unnecessarily adds between one and two hours to a simple trip to the Hamden shopping plaza.

Removal of the fence also opens the possibility of expanded CT Transit Service to connect West Rock to Dixwell Avenue, which could potentially make a trip to Walmart take only 30 minutes each way of travel, rather than the 3 hours minimum roundtrip that it currently takes.

posted by: Ladyc5303 on August 14, 2012  8:49pm

Disconnect again you don’t seem to realize who would want their neighborhood turned into a cut through, I live in new haven and my street is cut through from Whalley to Dixwell.  All kinds of people all times of the day and night dropping trash as they cut through.  cursing totally disrespecting my neighborhood and the $5,873.00 a year I pay in taxes to live here.  I brought this home so that I didn’t have to fight to get in my front door Bever Hill area we have Bowen Field, Hillhouse high Which makes my street a cut through.  NOT GOOD!!!

posted by: Ladyc5303 on August 14, 2012  9:15pm

I lived in Rockview guess what I went to elementary, middle school in Cheshire CT. Project Choice how long was that bus ride.  Common Ground High on Wintergreen Ave has students traveling as far as Waterbury, go figure.  Also they have public my Ride for elderly that need to pickup grocery, medication as quoted earlier from Walgreens just a phone call away.

posted by: elmcityresident on August 15, 2012  8:48am

@LADYC5303 i agree with ALL your comments, its evident that these other “ccommentators don’t lived in these areas or visited these areas,my grandmother lived in rockview from the time they where first built,so i have some knowledge. These places ALWAYS turn right back into a project look at monterey place(dixwell avenue), like you said we’ll see in a couple of years sooner than later! #TEAMFENCE

posted by: elmcityresident on August 15, 2012  8:58am

alot of people are commenting on transportation for the elderly,federally funding to “re-new” previous housing(projects)so disconnected from the truth,so obvious you have no clue,so obvious you sit behind a desk or maybe work for the city of new haven but the reality is if that fence is token down its gonna be a problem for hamden residents, the reality is these new redevelopment always re-house the same tenants from before their considered first priority , like i said before the “new” housing development should be housed with “real” working class people with over 5yrs of stable work history that’ll take pride in their property!

posted by: Teacher in New Haven on August 15, 2012  9:58am

I tend to think that this fence was a stupid idea in the first place. 

That said, it was a stupid idea in response to a real problem.  New Haven made the choice to warehouse some of its poorest and most disadvantaged citizens in a rural area that (with or without the fence) is almost inaccessible to the rest of the city.  In so doing, the city both guaranteed that the neighborhood in question would be marginal at best, and ensured that any response to crime in that neighborhood would be hampered by the distance from the city center.  More over, the city did so at the same time it was tearing down a substantial portion of the housing stock to build a highway to nowhere. 

I find it unsurprising that Hamden would view this as shifting the burden of some of New Haven’s neediest citizens (given that the residents of these projects would be closer to services and commerce in Hamden than they are in New Haven) and respond by suggeesting in no uncertain terms (a fence) that those residents turn to New Haven for needs. 

If New Haven would like to see that fence come down, then they should first demonstrate that this housing project will not represent a burden on Hamden through adequate policing and a rigorous vetting process.

posted by: Edward_H on August 16, 2012  2:47am

I will take the words of the Hamden homeowners ANY day over some Public Housing Bureaucrat. #TEAMFENCE

posted by: Sammy on August 16, 2012  10:33am

Here’s a thought experiment the NIMBY Independent should do…

replace “Hamden neighborhood” with “bike path” and see if people think that putting a fence next to a high-crime housing project is the equivalent of the “Berlin Wall.”

As far as I can tell, the only people calling it the Berlin Wall are the staff of the Independent. Maybe next time you pretend to do reporting about this you can run down those perceived crime stats and be a little less credulous of the HANH’s claims. It seems to me that there’s no change here at all - a boatload of taxpayer money was spent to build new places that are going to the same problematic unemployable people who caused trouble there the first fifteen times this was tried.

It was the perfect spot for a polo ground.

And I still haven’t seen an explanation for why people want the entire fence removed - even the portions behind private property.

Everyone I know who read this article comes away more determined to keep the fence in place until there’s a demonstrated change. The last story you did where you guys basically called everyone living on Woodin Street racist was a big hit with a few black families living there, too.

posted by: anonymous on August 16, 2012  2:02pm

Since 2005, Hamden has had at least 7 murders, not to mention hundreds of street robberies and aggravated assaults.  Also, several of the men killed in New Haven last year were Hamden residents. Perhaps New Haven needs to start erecting fences to keep Hamden residents out.

There have been murders in the Amity neighborhood (also near West Rock Park, but on the Woodbridge side, nowhere near this fence) and in Beaver Hills, but I don’t believe that there has been a single murder in West Rock since at least 2005. 

Can someone correct me if I’m wrong. I haven’t followed the news on the latest shootings. I know there was another murder in Amity recently, near the Woodbridge line.  But none in West Rock.

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on August 16, 2012  3:07pm

elmcityresident,
I have friends that either grew up or currently live in Westville Manor. My elementary school bus route went to West Rock including up the cul de sac of Rockview Circle. I don’t see how this makes any of my points more or less relevant because I don’t think that anyone denies that West Rock was a crime-plagued area and that HANH was essentially a slum lord that misappropriated funding in the 1990s. Over the last 20 years, crime has plummeted, HANH has been reorganized in response to a Federal audit, and public housing has become more diversified and less concentrated.

I’m also surprised to hear that you think Monterey Place is an example of a failed housing project. Can you document any pattern of serious crimes that have originated from Monterey Place - as opposed to originating from the surrounding neighborhood? Monterey Place has a very strict vetting process for prospective residents, so when problems do occur it is usually from the surrounding Dixwell neighborhood, which suffers from a large amount of slum lords - a problem that doesn’t exist in West Rock or Pine Rock.

Letting some or even most of the people return to West Rock who used to live there isn’t necessarily a problem because the vast majority of public housing residents are law-abiding citizens who get terrorized by a few bad apples and from outsiders coming into their development to sell and buy drugs. If public housing ONLY accepted applications from people who are steadily employed, then that would be missing the point of public housing entirely. It’s like saying MediCare should only be made available to people who are young and healthy. Having said that, West Rock will include owner-occupied houses and market rate units in addition to subsidized rental units in an attempt to diversify the development instead of concentrating poor people.

Ladyc5303,
Every neighborhood is a cut-through for someone. Newhallville is cut-through for people traveling from Beaver Hills to East Rock. Fair Haven is a cut-through for people traveling from Wooster Square to East Haven, etc.

Sammy,
Assuming that the fence complies with Hamden’s zoning ordinance, private property owners can decide to keep the sections of fence that are on their property if they want to. The fence only needs to be removed on the sections that block the public right-of-way (sidewalks and roads).

posted by: elmcityresident on August 16, 2012  4:08pm

@Jonathan Hopkins: I’m assuming this is you THE NEW HAVEN INDEPENDANT DID AN ARTICLE ON, “The New Haven of 2010 looks a lot different from the New Haven Hopkins grew up in. It’s even different from the New Haven he left in 2007 to begin attending Roger Williams University, where he majors in architecture.”
Anyway you’ve been away for awhile and yes there was a murder in Monterey Place, i knew is father very well did you? You can do your statistics and figures all you want but
the problem is still there when old tenants are returned SORRY, these new developments are beautiful, if you had anything to do with the building or architect kudos to you! but it is what it is!

posted by: Jonathan Hopkins on August 16, 2012  5:11pm

elmcityresident,
I assume you’re talking about the November 2006 murder of Robert Bennet on Ashmun Street? Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it someone from outside the complex that came in and committed the crime? The resident of Monterey Place public housing unit was the victim, not the perpetrator.

While I do go to school out of state, I still spend about 5 months out of the year in New Haven where my parents live. I also had nothing to do with the design of either Monterey Place or West Rock.

Again, just because previous tenants are returning doesn’t necessarily the same problems will return. The vast majority of residents were victims of a small population of bad apples, many of whom came from outside the project to partake in illegal activity. The same management problems that plaqued HANH in the 1990s seem to be behind us, which will mean that the new development will be better maintained, better supervised and more diverse.

There were legitimate concerns about West Rock in the late 80s and early 90s - there was an absurd about of crime and HANH was a corrupt and negligent organization - but HANH has been completely reorganized and public housing has been immensley improved in the city. I think that Hamden has a much weaker argument today than they did in the 80s or 90s.

West Rock doesn’t want access to Pine Rock. Pine Rock doesn’t have any services or goods - it has one school and a bunch of private residences. West Rock wants access to Dixwell Avenue where there are services, goods and transit access to major employment and shopping centers.

posted by: elmcityresident on August 17, 2012  8:57am

@jonathan,
it doesn’t matter if the person who committed the crime is from outside or not its that fact the the elements living there(projects) brings this type of violence into these neighborhoods PERIOD!If you’ve never lived in these neighborhoods then you really can’t comment on what its like living in these neighborhoods or how many people work or not! I can i grew up in West Hills, grandmother lived in rockview, aunts in the Brookside and Westville Manor!  All of them moved out and would not return at ALL!

posted by: ThinkBeforeTalk on August 17, 2012  3:20pm

“There were legitimate concerns about West Rock in the late 80s and early 90s - there was an absurd about of crime and HANH was a corrupt and negligent organization”

What is preventing this issues from returning? These projects need to first prove that they have changed (for the better) and prove that they can maintain a responsible society for several years before the fence is considered removable.

Also, there is a town meeting in Hamden August 29th to discuss the “new” brookside project problem but the papers will not print any details as to the time or location for fear that all of Hamden and several supportive towns will show up in favor of keeping the fence.

posted by: Ladyc5303 on August 17, 2012  5:36pm

Jonathan Mayor Cory Booker of Newark, N.J.  1998 to 2006 he temporarily moved into the Brick Towers, one of the worst complexes in that city.  He had it demolished.  When are you moving into Brooksside?

In my comment I was speaking of walking cut through traffic not driving.  I am all for getting a license, purchasing a car, home so you are a viable part of society.  Living the American dream! 

projects are a BAD idea. 

Beaver Hills is a working class neighborhood blacks, white, Indian etc.  Musicians, Librarians, etc.  All religions we have Muslims, Jewish, Christians and Catholics;  but then someone decided to rent their home.  OH YEAH you can tell the home owners from the renters.  Mop on the front porch, Grill on the front lawn music bopping when their outside company pull up, dogs tied to trees barking all day and night.  NO PEACE, no respect for you or anyone else.  No I don’t support RAP TRAP it makes people complacent.  In this life you have to fight, thrive and stop settling for nothing.  This generation coming up now, they call them generation X.  Look in the eyes of the some youth, you see no life. 

I teach mine that nothing easy is worth it!!!!  you get thrown a curve ball take a bat and knock it out the park!!! 

As I said earlier I grew up in Rockview but my kids have NEVER lived in low income housing.  I will NEVER go back.  My mom worked for DCF in the 70’s we were then taught to study work hard if one door close go to the next. 

Traveled on a long bus ride to school in Cheshire were I was the only black in my class. 

Give incentives for those low income residence to become home owners.  Most apartments now are converted into Condo’s anyway let’s try that.

posted by: ThinkBeforeTalk on August 23, 2012  10:00am

There is a meeting at the Keefe Community Center 11 Pine Street Hamden on Wednesday the 29 at 7pm for Hamden residence to talk to the mayor and town council about the brookside project and to gain support in keeping the fence up.