Dude, Where’s
My Chairmanship?

When Jones, who represents non-tax paying students, stops proposing nutty stuff like raising the "Livable" wage by $4 per hour in the middle of this economy after local property tax payers have been SOAKED, maybe, just maybe Carl will take the training wheels off.

Will Jones lose his seat on the board once he graduates?

I still think it is ridiculous that Yale has a seat on the BOA. Why don't SCSU, Gateway or Albertus Magnus students have a seat as well? If having a seat is all about money (which is why Yale Univ. has a seat) than we should give Yale-New Haven Hospital a seat and perhaps IKEA and the other big business interests in the Elm City.

New Haveners (New Havenites?) are completely inept if they allow Yale's seat to remain once Jones is gone.

This is a good life lesson to Alderman Jones, that there are consequences for his actions and (often immature)comments over the past few years.

jones is obviously not qualified because of some of the nutty things he has been saying.... but the entire system is designed by Goldfield????? wow... that's a pretty strange way to do things. kinda undemocratic. I like the guy, and I agree with a lot of things hes pushing for, and I know its not his problem how the system is set up, but this seems really really stupid.

ONE MORE TIME, why does yale, and it's transient grads get an alderman, and not SCSU, Albertus, any of the high schools? Redraw the damned districts. They (yalies) haven't earned one.
Mayor John likes to blame Yale / PILOT for so much of the fiscal justice, but has never said boo about them having such a big stake in our (oops, i forgot, i left New Haven in fifth gear) - YOUR- governing body.
I cannot defend the city anymore, and it kills me, but once again... you deserve it.

Townie:
Yale has a seat purely because of the demographics of a large region of New Haven. There is a significant portion of New Haven that is almost 100% populated by Yale students. They live here & are allowed to vote. It has nothing to do with some back-alley payments.

Louis, JAK:
Alderman Jones has worked hard, and pushed initiatives he cares deeply about and has spent time and effort on. I fail to see how any of his comments or actions have been "immature".

Townie: So if you move to a town for four years and then move on, are you making the case that you are not entitled to representation in town government during those years? Unlike workers at Ikea or commuter students at Southern, Yale students actually LIVE here. And there are so many of them concentrated in one area that it results in a BoA seat that is predominantly students. Every student in the country has the option of registering to vote in the city where they go to college, and being represented by that city. It's not just Yale.

On the subject of a board seat for Yale.

First, Ward 1, the district that comprises most, but not all, of the residential colleges, and Old Campus, is not somehow set aside for the institution of Yale, but rather for the significant population of students within the district. Southern and Gateway both are within their own wards. Southern is mostly in 29 with some parts in 30. Gateway is in 6. It will be in 7 following the move. Since Gateway does not have dorms, there should not be a Gateway ward. Yale students, while most of them are not taxpayers (a considerable number are employed, however), they are residents. The amount of taxes you pay does not determine whether you have voting rights. There are plenty of people in New Haven who are registered who pay little or no tax.

Secondly, getting rid of the "Yale ward" would increase the likelihood of an alderman from Yale or an alderman beholden to interests of Yale students in places like Dwight and Dixwell-Newhallville. Yale students turn out far better for elections than the average New Haven voter. Yale had near 50% turnout this past November. If Yale students were grouped with a large number of people from a nearby neighborhood, would it be best for the neighborhood? Plenty of yale students vote in Wards 2 and 22. I have no problem with it. But, if you don't like the fact that Yale has any voice, you would not want Yalies to be poking up in districts that have sizable non-Yale population as well.

Yalies (undergrads) do not live in New Haven, they board here for a few months out of the year. While I understand the demographic issue, I still think it is contrived to give the univeristy more political control. Boston does not give Harvard undergrads a seat in their city council and they have a sizeable student population. There are many cities that have a lot larger student populations and yet they don't allow a representative to sit in their assembly/council.
Allowing students to vote is one thing, but giving one university (out of three) a seat in the BOA is a complete jump in logic. It is an action that is a characteristic of New Haven's dependency on Yale University. The interests of Yale are already represented by their Board of Directors, as well as their significant influence over city, state and national affairs.
The BOA seat for Yale should be eliminated. Perhaps an at-large seat can be created for the students of all of New Haven's post-secondary institutions.

Streever, Heck, why not make the livable wage REALLY livable and increase it to $25 per hour with full benefits? And while Jones is loading his idealism onto the backs of New Haven taxpayers, maybe he would call for free college admission to Yale for every New Haven public school student who graduates from high school? Oh, what's that you say? Is that taking youthful idealism a little bit too far?

my point dm, is that i don't like the fact that yale has been drawn it's own aldermanic seat for a population that overwhelmingly will leave new haven as soon as they've extracted all they can from the city, and - again not entirely, but the vast majority - has no personal connection to the city.
The seat given them is one that will most likely be filled by a person who who will not be around to see the long term effects of any mistakes or bad legislation passed by them. For that reason, i believe this seat is nothing more then a place for poly-sci majors to play politician for two years.
i'm glad yale students vote, i just don't believe they've earned the right to blow in and out of town and have an elected seat handed to them

@Townie - Re: Harvard & Boston

Harvard is in Cambridge MA not Boston

A few more points:

A technicality: Cambridge's city councillors are elected on an at-large basis. Therefore, neither Harvard, nor MIT, nor any neighborhood in Cambridge has "their" representative. You can debate whether such a system would be good for a city like New Haven, with a far more diverse range of neighborhoods than Cambridge.

The suggestion that Ward 1 adds to university power is a little ridiculous. While it appears that most people on this forum disapprove of Mike Jones's living wage, it should be noted that the University as an institution also opposes an expansion to the living wage. Often the Ward 1 Alderman is opposed to the policies of the University.

As someone who was born in New Haven, I reject the notion that Yale students 'extract' from the city. I can list my problems with Yale and the city until I am blue in the face. But, the Yale undergraduate population keeps Broadway and Chapel afloat.

Also, if Southern students organized around getting someone elected to Ward 29, they could do it. A smaller percentage of Southern students board on campus, as compared to Yale students. And, if Yale students don't board on campus, they definitely live in New Haven, unlike many Southern students.

The real question, though, which no one has responded to, is this: Which is better for the city, one district (out of 30) for Yale undergraduates, or Yale students scattered in districts where their proven ability to turn out will turn multiple districts into districts possibly held by Yale students or at least to people who depend on them for re-election?

And lastly, if the policies proposed by Ward 1 Aldermen are totally egregious and counter to anything that someone who has lived their whole life in New Haven would propose, then I imagine that the 29 other aldermen might oppose it, don't you? Don't act as if 5,000 undergraduates are somehow over-represented.

Funky Chicken: You're right, my mistake. However, the point still stands. Cambridge doesn't give Council seats to Harvard students. And Boston doesn't give seats to BU students, or BC Students or UMASS (Boston) students. In fact I am hard pressed to find another city in the U.S. that does the same thing, in regards to seating university students, as our BOA.

TOWNIE,

There is no BOA seat for Yale. Yale is within Ward 1.

http://www.cityofnewhaven.com/CityPlan/pdfs/Maps/AldermanicLegislativeDistrictMaps/WardandDistrictMap.pdf


Gerrymandered? maybe...but then explain Ward 29 to me.

Have to jump in.
I do not always see eye to eye with Jones, but he is an active alderman and takes time to understand the things that are happening in this city. I give anyone credit for doing that. Remember this is not some high paid job...what 12 cent an hour? And there are not alot of people lining up to run. But with that said I can say that I feel he does not understand the dire straits homeowners in this city are really in. Each alder represents their district and there needs. Jones represents a district of students....that mostly live in Yale housing. There needs vary from the rest of the city...bike lanes, traffic calming (educating students how to cross the street...sorry had to throw that one in). In general he is doing exactly what he was elected to do, be the voice of his ward....on the other hand if we want to point fingers....we need to look at our own Alders...did they represent our wards??? How did your Alder vote on the budget??? On spending... really???
http://www.nhcan.org/docs/boa/boa-accountability.html

Did you call them and tell them how you felt?? did you tell the people in your community to call and do the same?? This year is going to be a crazy one....lets not get side tracked on the blame game...lets look at our own alders

JAK,
Alderman Jones got a raw deal on his proposal. The City Staff assured him the cost to the city/tax-payers would be low. They then pulled out another set of numbers at the 11th hour and made snarky comments about him. Not the way I want our city officials or employees to behave, but that is what happened. His initial proposal made sense and would cost a very minimal amount.

Townie:
It has been explained already but here is another shot at it. No one "gives" Yale a seat. The city bylaws are very clear. Due to the sheer density of yale undergrads in that area, it is going to most likely always go to Yale. I guess we could gerrymander it, split 5 different wards right along the yale housing, but then we'd have a quarter of each of those wards be Yale students as well, and we might see 5 Yale alders.

How exactly would you handle the prob-no, not a problem, a reality--that there are over 2,000 registered voter Yale students living in the same Ward without gerrymandering or breaking the law?

Robn: Ward 1 is the Yale University ward. It was created just for them. All of New Haven's wards seem odd in shape, I've always wondered why we have wards at all, New Haven is not a very big city. Anyway, two at-large aldermen for all of the city's post-secondary universities should be sufficient. Of course these aldermen would be non-voting members, like the Puerto Rican Representatives in the US Congress.

Streever: The city by-laws do give Yale University a seat on the Board, it might not come right out and say it, but the districting of the city automatically creates a "Yale Ward". The ward should be dissolved. I think an at-large alderman for all of the post-secondary university students, that board in New Haven, would be a fair alternative. However, I also think it is fair if Yale students didn't have their own ward. The students would obviously retain their voting rights, but they don't need their own rep on the board. It is not illegal to exclude a student population from council representation. I have stated before a lot of cities don't seat student representatives on their councils. And New Haven's by-laws seem to ignore the increasing residential population of SCSU students, which has to be at least one thousand undergrads. The plain fact is that Yale and New Haven have a "special" relationship, in which the university is afforded extraordinary accommodation and consideration in almost all matters of municipal administration.
This relationship has some benefits, but also has resulted in gentrification and the destruction of working-class neighborhoods in the city. It is time for New Haven to reconsider their relationship with Yale and revoking Yale's BOA seat should definitely be a serious consideration for New Haven's citizens.

Townie--Your last assertion--that Yale has caused "gentrification" and the destruction of working-class neighborhoods. Could you please name one such neighborhood that has been affected in that way in the last 50 years? I am making the cut-off there because bringing up the destruction of the Oak Street Neighborhood, while one of the single worst examples of urban renewal gone astray in the US, did happen quite some time ago. If we still haven't forgiven Dick Lee, I don't blame you. But be specific when you make a blanket comment like "Yale has caused gentrification."

Townie,

Would you care to reference the provision or provisions in the city charter that give "Yale University" a seat on the BoA? You've stated that such a provision exists multiple times but have failed to actually, you know, tell us which provision it is. Maybe because it doesn't exist.

The City Charter provides for a 30-member BoA and provides for district-based elections to fill those seats. We have this cool thing called "one man, one vote" in this country, so in order to abide by that, the districts have to be drawn in such a way as to provide for equal representation, which generally means that they should be drawn to have roughly equal populations. And they have to be geographically contiguous.

So, where in that is there a "Yale University seat"? There are 30 geographically based seats, and that's it. Now, the fact of the matter is that college students have to live somewhere (and Yale students live here for 9 or more months per year, not just "a few" as you suggest). And if that "somewhere" is in New Haven, it falls in one of the 30 wards. Since Yale's dorms are all pretty close together, they end up being cut into one or two or maybe at most three wards. And there's no way around that.

Interestingly, though, you act as though that guarantees Yale a seat. Not so at all. There is absolutely nothing preventing, say, you from moving into the Oxford Apartments on High Street and running for Ward 1 Alder. It just so happens that nobody has done this. But the point is, the seat isn't technically reserved for Yale, it just so happens that the very high concentration of Yale students in Ward 1 results in them electing one of their own.

Your proposal to provide a non-voting represenative for all college students is absurd and probably unconstitutional. You're seriously proposing that we eliminate bonafide New Haven residents' right to representation on the grounds that...they're college students? That'd get challenged in court in a heartbeat--legally speaking, Yale students live in New Haven. They're counted as New Haven residents for census purposes, so you get federal funds for them. But you don't think they should be allowed to register to vote in New Haven? That makes absolutely zero sense, and would probably result in a very, very embarrassing and costly lawsuit that some Yale Law students would probably love to fight out against the City.

Moreover, your bit about "no other city" giving a college a seat on their city council is garbage. EVERY other city allows college and graduate students to vote in their municipal elections, and that's all that New Haven does. My best friend is originally from California; he attended Boston University and voted in every municipal election that took place while he was there. Harvard and MIT students vote in Cambridge elections; Fordham students can vote in the Bronx, Columbia and NYU students in Manhattan, Trinity students in Hartford...you get the idea.

What makes New Haven different is the bloated BoA that we have. Each ward consists of about 4000 people, and Yale has 5,500 undergrads and a roughly equal number of grad students (though the grad students are more dispersed). And keep in mind that wards are divided by street. Even the smallest Yale dorm has at least 400 students. And given the dismal turnout among the rest of the city, it's tough to talk about "diluting" the Yale vote through gerrymandering--there are several members of the board right now who won their seats with fewer than 400 votes (Goldson, Perez, Jackson-Brooks, Colon, and James-Evans come to mind, though I don't recall the exact numbers for each).

Look, I think it's a bit odd that the way the system works basically guarantees that you end up with a Yale undergrad on the BoA every time, just as I think it's a bit odd that the system allows every single alder from the Hill to run effectively unopposed because the communities in 3, 4, 5, and 6 are so transient and depressed that you just can't get that many viable candidates out of there. And I think it's really problematic that the district populations are so small that something like tearing down an apartment complex can lead to gigantic overrepresentation of the interests in one district--look at what happened in Ward 30 with the demolition of Brookside (not that tearing down Brookside was a bad idea). And I think it's ridiculous to assume that the interests of Wards 2, 3, 4, and 6 or of 2, 23, and 24 (or some other combinations of geographically close wards) are so divergent that they need their own alder.

So yes, I think that there are a lot of problems with the way the BoA is set up. It'd be great if New Haven switched to a system like the one in Cambridge, or even just to bigger districts and fewer Alders. I really do think that cutting the size of the BoA down to 15 would make for more effective government without sacrificing much in the way of expertise. Would we really lose much, for example, if we cut the size of the board in half and as a result the Hill were represented by Perez and Jackson-Brooks? What have Colon and James-Evans brought to the Board? If anything, increasing the size of wards would lead to more politically viable candidates and would give incumbents more of an incentive to actually, you know, do stuff.

But that's not the critique that Townie is putting forth. He's attacking Yale students for no reason other than, well, they're Yale students. True, they don't pay taxes the same way that someone living in East Rock might. But they eat in New Haven restaurants, shop in New Haven stores, and rent New Haven apartments in many cases. Furthermore, because they're counted as New Haven residents in the census, the city gets federal money because of these students' mere presence. And in exchange for that, what do they use in the way of services? The fact is that Yale, as an institution, is the one think keeping New Haven from being Bridgeport. Stop criticizing the people who make up that institution for exercising their right to vote.

The bottom line is this: if a Yale student has proof of residency in New Haven and is a U.S. Citizen over age 18, that student has a right to register to vote in New Haven. Many do, some don't. But at the end of the day, they all get to pick one place to vote. What you want to do is illegal and unconstitutional, and your arguments for doing so are completely off base.

DM I agree on the gentrifying...in my area we are fixing things but we fear if we fix them students will take it over. It is a fine line between community improvement and pricing your self out. Nash street is one of many examples..people go into community's and try to make them a safe place to raise a family and then yale students here of the safe affordable place and move in and then the prices go up fast. There are pockets of this throughout the city...westville fairhaven...and yes even east rock...is it progress or unitentional gentrification?
page 15
http://environment.research.yale.edu/documents/downloads/a-g/ey_fall04.pdf

there are other storys put I am to lazy to look them up

dm: ... The entire downtown area has been affected by Yale. While some may see the changes as improvements, others do not. There was a time when one could go downtown and buy groceries, hardware, i.e., useful things that people need. Now downtown is packed with bars, clubs, restaurants, cafes, etc. Boutique shoppes that cater to a very specific class of people. Yale used a lot of influence to "clean up" downtown. They still use that influence to drive out businesses that don't fit their idea of a student friendly New Haven. I know that Yale is not the only party responsible but they are one of the biggest.
To me New Haven is a city of small "suburbs", all of which are linked by the downtown area. The downtown area being the commercial center. Now, thanks in part to Yale, the commercial center is non-existent. People leave New Haven whenever they can, living in the towns is usually a bit less expensive, a lot safer, and not much different from living in Westville, East Rock, etc. The only people who usually stay in the Elm City are people who can't afford to move and the upper-middle class who can afford to stay. Also, Yalies (undergrads and grad students) are a sizeable portion of the population. Most working-class/middle class people have left, or are planning to leave. They can drive into New Haven if they still desire a taste of the "city life."

Streever,

Jones asked "the city staff"? Is that to imply that he asked anyone who actually knows anything about running a business? Seriously, did he ask any private business owner what the consequences might be? Did he talk with the Chamber? Did he consult with the tax watchdogs?

The City staff?? Give me a break. That's like saying he asked the CT. Transit bus division about the impact of adding more bike lanes.

Professor: I conceded previously that City laws and/or ordinances do not specifically set forth a "Yale Ward", but one can easily conclude that the city was zoned so that Yale gets a seat on the BOA. You're right, I could move to High Street and run for the BOA, but I wouldn't stand a chance against the Yale candidate. That's the way the city planned it.

It seems that this issue is often confused with suffrage. I never said Yalies shouldn't be allowed to vote in municipal elections. But, there is a distinct difference between allowing one to vote and giving a special interest group a voting seat on the BOA.

As I said before an at-large BOA representative for all post-secondary student bodies would be fair. Re-zone the city so that the 1st ward does not include Yale. One could argue that Yale is a private institution and as such it's property should not be included in electoral zoning. And to say that Yale students would lose a "voice" in city government is laughable. They have a billion dollar corporation working for them.

You're right, I am against Yale students having any say in the direction of this city. I am anti-Yale for many reasons and I think it would only benefit the people of New Haven and of Connecticut if Yale University was not as influential as it is.

Let the students vote in elections, don't allow them to run a candidate for the BOA.

It is a falsehood to suggest that Yale students and the Yale Corporation are in anyway on the same page. Living wage, financial aid, and most recently, teacher prep, are all issues that divide students and the administration.

I will not disagree that the University drove out Copper Kitchen or the Yankee Doodle. I don't love that, either. But, they are a major landowner (and they pay taxes when they own commercial property). If you look at areas where Yale has not placed a major stake, like the old Chapel Square Mall, you see empty storefronts.

The disappearance of a grocery store from downtown, most recently Shaw's, was not caused by Yale. In fact, Yale students, especially those living off campus, visited Shaw's very frequently.

Please visit the clubs on Crown Street, if you think that they are all establishments designed for a certain "class" of people. You will find plenty of people from all over the area.

The issue of people leaving New Haven explains why Yale has such influence. People left New Haven because of increased crime, etc., in the post-War period. They moved to places like East and West Haven a long time ago. It's old news. They also left because of the destruction of the industrial base that was the heart of the economy of this city, and of all small cities in the Northeast. The problems in New Haven are not caused by Yale, though Yale certainly has not always been a kind neighbor. The problems are caused by a lack of industry that could employ a large number of workers who live in the city. If the problem were just Yale, then Bridgeport and Hartford would be shining cities on hills. They are not. We can criticize Yale for its part, but we ought not to lay all the blame on them for a larger regional problem.

DM: Shaw's was not downtown, there were grocers actually on chapel street at one time. Now, thanks in part to Yale, such a business would be impossible to open anywhere near the Green. Gentrification of the downtown district has created a boutique tourist friendly area. Practical businesses and services can no longer survive in the district, thanks to high rents, high taxes and aggressive opposition from Yale.
That is a major reason why most working-class and middle class people don't stay or move to New Haven, there's no point. And the cost cannot be justified.
I don't place all the blame on Yale, but they have been a major proponent of de-industrialization, property accumulation and gentrification. I think it is in their interests to keep the poor neighborhoods poor so that, when they want to, they can easily expand through the purchase of below market properties.

Townie--The shopping mall-ification of Broadway and other retail zones is less about Yale's "influence" than their power as a landlord to control their tenants, and to make life difficult for their neighbors [Toad's, Bespoke, the old York Square Cinema site]. Face it, Yale has money and power, and it's New Haven's largest industry.

I don't like a lot of what Yale Properties does, but I can't give them credit or blame for everything. Chapel Street was first remade by Joel Schiavone--give him credit for the improvements, not Yale--and there re still a lot of other landlords on that street. And Yale Properties is sitting on a lot of empty storefronts on Audobon, BTW.