New Haven Independent

posted by: Volvo on February 3, 2010  5:50pm

I definitely understand the importance of this bill in relation to many of the bars and clubs downtown, but an exception of some kind needs to be made for Toads.  They have been doing all ages shows there for as long as I can remember.  I saw Beck there in 1994 when I was 18 or so. 

It has a completely different vibe then these “juice parties” you see touted at these clubs.  Toads has music shows and a weekly dance party, but the problem clubs glorify the club scene and drinking.  Toads appears to be very well managed when it comes to shows too.  I’m in my 30’s and am always carded, my ID scanned either in front or in the back bar area.  When I was underage I was always annoyed that I couldn’t manipulate the system somehow.

Kids should have someplace to go and something fun and safe to do, but the juice parties are out of hand so I agree with the bill.  But I also feel that some established places need to be either grandfathered out of the new rule or it should be structured in such a way that it won’t negatively impact those businesses which have a certain percentage of their weekly business from that age group. 

It seems like these places always have an event on a Sunday before some federal holiday which falls on the following monday.  Maybe keep that from taking place instead…I read the news on tuesday after those events and just wonder why nothing has been done.

Thanks for the efforts Ms. James-Evans, I’m interested to see how this evolves.

posted by: s on February 3, 2010  5:58pm

Is it underage parties that are the problem or underage hip hop nights that are the problem. I have been going to toads for years and there never seems to be serious problems there.

posted by: mary rosario on February 3, 2010  6:20pm

Great thinking Jackie.We need to find other ways to let our kids get together and not at a bar.Kids will find a way to get liquor at such a place.It goes back to the conversation that we always have and never finish a place or places that these kids could hang out,so says Gotham Citi who ran a sunday party it got to be a problem because there were to many kids.Kids are looking for a place just to be and hang out with their friends.We need to open up in our communities again and find places for these kids to learn how to hang out and learn how to be social with each other so it will end all this fighting with each other.

posted by: robn on February 3, 2010  7:37pm

Oh yeah right…its the club owner who bears the responsibility of misbehaving youth, not the parent(s) who let the kids out of the house in the first place. If the kids came to the clubs with a moral compass, they would leave it with a moral compass. As long as the clubs aren’t serving alcohol, they’re legally and responsibly providing youths with a place to gather in a supervised setting. What happens afterward has everything to do with upbringing and nothing to do with the businesses. If these events get shut down, the kids will go underground and there will be a much greater access to booze and drugs. I can guarantee it because I’ve seen it first hand. Try to make fun disappear and you’re only forcing the fun underground where it will blossom with license.

posted by: The Professor on February 3, 2010  7:46pm

Should we really take seriously Doug Bethea’s opinion on how best to deal with unruly youth?  Isn’t this the same Doug Bethea whose step team was actually THROWN OUT OF A HOTEL for being too unruly?  (http://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/drill_team_booted/)  It’s at best unclear whether he can control a group of kids that is UNDER HIS DIRECT SUPERVISION, and yet we should somehow follow his lead on modifying the behavior of an entire city’s youth?  Give me a break.

posted by: kamb on February 3, 2010  8:40pm

Hey lady,
Go bother someone else. These all-age bars give college students 18 to 21 a place to go on friday and saturday nights instead of going to other bars out of town with fake ID’s. All this will do is make kids go back to getting fake IDs.

posted by: Jess on February 3, 2010  9:44pm

Here’s a simple solution. If the event at a hall or club is ‘concert oriented’ with a mandated ticket price, a celebrity performer and a show time announced, then the place should be allowed to go ahead. If the concert has a ‘rougher’ type crowd, a couple of cops should be there working. The people attending have their focus on the show and not each other. No problems here.
The DJ-dancing program for the high school kids is just asking for trouble. High school kids should not be in the clubs unless they are attending a concert.
For the college kids in the area, make it 19 and over to attend a DJ-dancing type of party.  This keeps the high school kids away from the clubs and DJ-dancing parties.
Any of these clubs that open on Christmas Eve should be given a serious look. If they need money bad enough to open on Christmas Eve, who knows what else they will do.
The clubs that have been doing it right for years should be allowed to continue. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.

posted by: JP on February 3, 2010  11:44pm

Its about time. everyone knows that at these all ages event the kids payoff the bouncers or buy the bracelet off a 21 year old who is leaving the club. This law will save lives and property. Just ask anyone at the town green special services district and they will tell you that they always see considerable damage after these events. I do think you could have places like toads apply to be considered music venues rather then bars and allow people under 21 in when they have a show going on.

posted by: Dave on February 4, 2010  12:29am

Where are the young adults supposed to go, lets see you can vote, buy property, gamble, get married, serve in the armed forces but you can’t go out and see live muisic, much less have a beer.  Something has been wrong since 1980 in CT, I went to the going away party for the 18 tear olds and had a beer in TOADS on my 18th birthday.

posted by: The Professor on February 4, 2010  5:54am

I just wanted to add to my previous comment so as to avoid sounding too harsh or cynical.  I commend Mr. Bethea on the work he has done in the community.  However, a strong motivation to reach out to at risk youth and to work to give them positive choices in life—a motivation which Mr. Bethea clearly exhibits—should not necessarily translate to ability to speak with authority on the broader issue of unruly youth.  The Kansas City incident, in my estimation, casts serious light on his ability to control a group of youth under his direct supervision.  Simply put, he had an opportunity to set and enforce rules of behavior for a group of youth, and the end result was the youth being thrown out of a hotel for unruliness.  Note that this is something independent of any racial component that may or may not have been there—perhaps the children would not have been thrown out if they were white, perhaps the hotel staff may have been more understanding.  But the point of the matter as far as our concern here isn’t whether there were racial tensions, it’s that the youth were unruly to begin with.

Now, on the merits of Mr. Bethea’s argument—he says that “It’s a place for groups of kids that don’t like each other to meet up and fight. Those things right now are destroying our city. No one under 21 should be allowed in a nightclub that has a liquor license.”  No, what’s destroying the city’s youth is a lack of positive choices and a lack of a vision for a future that is built on such choices.  Eliminating one potential avenue for negative choices does nothing to fix that.  It’s not as if keeping 18-21 year olds from going to nightclubs will lead them directly to Mr. Bethea’s doorstep for a talk about the positive choices available to them.  It’s not as though keeping youth out of Static or Gotham will drive them to study instead.

Indeed, those who are going to make bad choices will continue to make bad choices until they are given an alternative.  Instead of concentrating on shutting down nightclubs, and thereby driving any questionable behavior further underground while unfairly penalizing those who simply want to dance with their friends and have a good time, we should focus on providing positive choices.

What alternatives are currently available for New Haven’s youth on Friday nights?  Are there community movie hours?  Are there nighttime football or basketball tournaments?  The NBA is currently in season, has the idea of having a group game watching session been considered?  Heck, even a community adult chaperoned dance party would provide a good outlet for these kids. 

This proposed ban does absolutely nothing to fix the underlying situation.  It’s like putting a bandaid on a tumor.  Other less restrictive measures are likely to be significantly more effective.  True, designing and implementing these measures will be significantly more difficult and complex than this “nightclubs are bad” mantra, but nothing good comes easy, right?

posted by: OES on February 4, 2010  7:27am

This makes a lot of sense.  Clubs were alcohol is being served is not an appropriate place for high school aged students.  How about making a provision that the clubs allow individuals who are 18 and over as opposed to All-Ages ONLY when live musical performances are involved.

posted by: Wicked Lester on February 4, 2010  9:12am

Following the NHI’s stories regarding problem bars, it is evident that there is a pattern of the combination of “dance music” and misbehavior.

posted by: JP on February 4, 2010  10:02am

I think there are two things you have to be careful of here. 1 you cant just say 18 year olds can come in if there are live live musical performances because all the clubs will say that having a DJ spin music is a live performance. We need to designate places as clubs or music venues. 2) as soon as this passes at least one club will ditch there liquor licence and become an 18 and over club. Lets hope its not Sinergy who it looks like is changing there name to avoid looking like the place where a murder happened.

posted by: Rob on February 4, 2010  11:20am

The event that inspired this proposal was covered very positively by the NHI as showing that “urban young people have the philanthropic spirit too.”  It was a coat-drive held two days before Christmas:  http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/12/hundreds_of_tee.php

From my recollection of the event, I’d note a couple of things:
1) these kids definitely have a moral compass,
2) any problems associated with the event wasn’t because it was at a bar/club, but because you had a couple hundred kids gather together right as Xmas break started.

I think underage drinking at bars/clubs is a big problem, but usually where they sneak in or where you have clubs that aren’t as good blocking off the underage section as Toad’s and Gotham (from my understanding they aren’t perfect, but generally work ok).  The issue the alderwoman is reacting to is different, though - it’s about large numbers of teens congregating, whether at a club or at a Sweet 16 party at the Belvedere Motel’s ballroom.

I doubt the alderwoman’s proposal is something municipalities are allowed to pass, and it conflates two separate issues and wouldn’t really address either of them.

posted by: Mary on February 4, 2010  11:38am

GREAT Ideal Alderwoman James - Evans, these teens don’t need to be in bars and while your at it can you please do something about the bars that is surrounding the new Co-op school.

I support you on this move.

posted by: Chuck on February 4, 2010  11:53am

There is a very big difference between an 18+ club and an all-ages night.  There are many places that routinely do 18+ college nights that would never hold an all-ages event.  I do hope that the local business people get a chance to weigh in on the proposed legislation.

posted by: That's Right, I said it on February 4, 2010  12:13pm

We already have a system in place to handle crowds. It is called the New Haven Police Department. Back in day New Haven had places for teen aged children and not quite legal adults to go. Granted, there was NO alcoholic beverages in the building. I would like to state that there seems to be some type of suggested relationship to the type of event regarding hip hop. 1st off, when Yale students cause a raucous the New Haven Police contact the Yale Police and no one is the wiser. 2nd white kids spend more money on hip hop than black kids could ever dream of. They buy the concert tickets, the CDs, the clothing, the fragrances, posters, itunes, etc, etc, etc. Based on the economies of scale white families tend to have more disposal income. Not many of the kids from around the way have that pleasure, unless they are drug dealers. But there are drug dealers in the suburbs too. What a quagmire. Don’t be so quick to blame it on the inner city kids. It is pretty much precendence. You come from the suburbs to work in the city, buy drugs in the city,seek out women of the night, and entertainment. But, this is the fault of the inner city folk for allowing it. We vote them in, keep them in and let them tell us how our city should be run but when the issh hits the fan it is the fault of the residents. I wonder were the people live who own the clubs. Maybe they should open a club in their own town. By the way, leave Dougie alone. He is from New Haven and grew up in the trenches and is trying to do good work. He may have a narrow view of isms, but that is what happens when you have had to deal with isms all of your life, you become a little jaded. He means well.

posted by: Morris Cove Mom on February 4, 2010  12:51pm

I’m all for what Alderwoman JJE is proposing, except…I think she’s forgetting the fact that we live in a college town, and most of the potential clientele for these places is 17-22. I would propose a slight change to her bill, one that says the fine is $200 for the first offense, PER PERSON. That should drive home the importance of said bill, and the seriousness of the city to back it. But like I said about Cardinal’s cum Butta J’s, part of problem is the number of liquor licenses this city hands out, and the lack of resposible students and citizens we seem to have living here. Call me old-fashioned, but better laws and a nightly curfew might help all this madness.

posted by: Chuck on February 4, 2010  1:45pm

Morris Cove Mom:  You mention fines for a violation but no specific infractions are named in your comment.  Currently, there are substantial fines that are levied by the state DCP for underage drinking violations.  Additionally, its the DCP, in conjunction with the city/town, that issues liquor licenses.  Given all the proponents of ‘Sin’ taxes in this state, its obvious that these licenses represent a viable and substantial revenue stream for the government.  Lastly, you would give up personal freedoms by way of a curfew to stop this madness? Really?  If the madness you are referring to is a bunch of high-school aged kids running wild, go after their parents.  Leave our right to move freely about our city, state and country alone.

@OES - Clubs that hold All-Ages parties (13-17 years old) must remove all alcohol from selling areas and must not have any alcohol visible to the patrons of such an event.

18+ Establishments- Most franchise restaurants such as Fridays, Olive Garden, Red Lobster have full restaurant liquor licenses.  This is the same exact license that is held by some of the downtown establishments. There are certain criteria that must be met and maintained in the design of the restaurant/bar in order to be able to accommodate an 18 plus crowd.

posted by: jp on February 4, 2010  1:56pm

Morris Cove Mom, liquor licences are handed out by the state the city has nothing to do with it and no way to stop it.

posted by: Pedro on February 4, 2010  2:09pm

I’m definitely more for this legislation than I am against it. I definitely think that unchaperoned all ages nights should be permanently banned (or if they are run, it has to be an organization with some sort of legal responsibility over the kids and not a bar).

For 18+, could the compromise legislation be that if it’s an all ages show, then there can be no alcohol served at those events? So you could have a toads concert or a dance party for 18+, but they would be dry events, which would stop the underage drinking problem.

How does this work in other college towns?

posted by: dave coon on February 4, 2010  2:39pm

New Haven doesn’t owe Mr. Phelps a viable business that can only survive if underage dance parties are allowed. 
Idea: book better, more interesting acts and the people may actually show up for concerts again.  We all know your profit comes for the bar so it stands to reason that you might want to figure out a way of getting legal drinkers back to the establishment.

posted by: Twoni on February 4, 2010  4:41pm

I think that all this bill will do is add more fuel to the fire. I am a teen myself and trust me, teens know ways to get around situations like these. Even if you try to solve issues involving teens they are still going to do what they please because it involves the environment they live in. Teens know how to get alcohol beverages without having to go to nightclubs. There are many of people willing to get it for them, so the nightclubs aren’t the problem. If they take the little fun we have away from us all it does is cause more problems in the neighborhoods because we always find constructive things to do that older adults believe isnt appropriate. This will not solve anything!

posted by: Chuck on February 4, 2010  6:18pm

I appreciate Twoni’s honesty but most of all, I love the fact that Twoni is reading about current events in the community and actually inputting an opinion.  Nice job.

posted by: Mister Jones on February 4, 2010  11:54pm

The drinking age should be 18 like it used to be.  The higher age only encourages binge drinking and disrespect for laws.  And it’s a travesty that our young people can go overseas and die for our country, or come back maimed but can’t have a beer.  Prohibition has never worked.

posted by: Dot Khan on February 5, 2010  12:28am

This is another broadly worded feel-good measure. Laws like this affect the 95% that are not causing problems in regards to concerns about a few with lower standards.
Instead of grandstanding, how about talking to and working with the club owners that have figured out how to do it right? When I used to work at Toads, we had detailed manuals on how things are to be done.

posted by: Dot Khan on February 5, 2010  8:55am

This knee jerk reaction is because of 1 incident. Instead of grandstanding in the press, how about talking to and getting feedback from the places that have figured out how to responsibly handle whatever type of crowd they draw.
Feel good measures like this proposed law end up punishing the 95% of those that do things right in response to the few where there may have been a problem.

posted by: Mister Jones on February 5, 2010  9:52am

By the way, if they bar hundreds of 18-21 year old kids from the clubs, what are they going to do at night?  Seems to me this is asking for more trouble.

posted by: robn on February 5, 2010  11:03am

If we criminalize dancing, then only criminals will have dances.

Footloose

...sorry…it had to be said…

posted by: JP on February 5, 2010  11:04am

Dot Khan, Are you kidding? Toads has had there licence pulled how many time for underage drinking? They had to shut down the entire summer a few years back. There are no clubs that do it right because there is no way to do it right. That’s why the only clubs that do it are the problem clubs.

posted by: Dot Khan on February 5, 2010  2:03pm

I used to work at Toad’s the night they were raided. The trash cans were full of fake I.D.s. These “innocent” kids show a fake ID to the club’s security to get in, then get the club fined by showing the liquor agent cops their real ID claiming that their underage ID was what they showed the bar. It makes good publicity for the agents to say that 25 underage kids were in a place with liquor without mentioning whether the capacity is small neighborhood bar holding 50 or a larger place holding 750. Its easy to fine a club but the kids get away with fraud thinking its a joke.

posted by: Dot Khan on February 5, 2010  2:24pm

Many bands only draw young crowds, on band nights the kids were kept separate at Toad’s . Not allowing a place to ever have entertainment because they serve liquor some nights would result in kids never seeing live entertainment since before bands are big enough to play the Palace Theater, they start in smaller places like Toad’s. Will this bill be extended to The Yale Bowl because they serve beer?
Liquor licenses provide something for officials to hold over an establishment. Over the years some establishments upon being denied liquor licenses started having full nudity since that is one of many things prohibited with a license.

posted by: JP on February 5, 2010  4:08pm

Dot Khan, Please ID scanners cost as little as $900.00 http://www.idscanner.com/?gclid=CKuHv_j9258CFQmfnAodl0m1Hw every club should have one and if Toad’s did not its because they did not want to. That aside I do believe that TRUE music venues should be except.
But New haven should not have to put up with this from Gotham, Center street lounge, Sinergy, 5 senses (static), or Alchemy any longer enough is enough. Downtown is the life blood of this city and it’s become a joke. This bill will save lives and money we should pass it ASAP.  Let the clubs follow Keys to the city out to Long Warf where they belong just like in every other city.

posted by: HUGGY-BEAR ENT. on February 5, 2010  6:23pm

WELL MY ENT NAME IS HUGGY-BEAR ENT. OF NEW HAVEN CT. AND I HAVE BEEN IN PARTNERSHIP WITH I.C.T. TEENS AND HAVE BEEN HOSTING TEEN HIP-HOP NIGHTS FOR TWO YEARS. NOW LET ME JUST SAY A FEW THINGS: FIRST THINGS FIRST IS THAT I HAVE PERSONALLY INVITED COMMUNITY LEADERS TO COME OUT TO MY TEEN PARTIES AND HAVE EVEN OFFERED THEM TO GET TIME TO TALK TO THE KIDS ON THE MIC AND TO THIS DAY THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS COME OUT HAS BEEN MR. LARRY T YOUNG WHICH HAS COME AND SPOKEN @ ONE OF MY TEEN PARTYS. ALSO BY LAW WE ARE NOT TECHNICALLY REQUIRED TO HIRE A COP,SECURITY OR TO CALL AND PUT IT ON THE POLICE DETAIL BUT WE DO THAT. ALDERWOMAN JAMES HAS SPOKEN ON THE ENVIRONMENT OF MIXING 14 AND 18 YEAR OLD TEENS TOGETHER BUT IN SCHOOLS THEY ARE IN THE SAME ENVIRONMENT EVERYDAY. WHAT YOU PEOPLE NEED TO REALIZE IS THAT IF NO TEEN PARTYS HAPPEN AT CLUBS OR HALLS FOR EXAMPLE THEN THEY WILL BEGIN TO HAPPEN AT PEOPLE HOMES WHERE THERES NO SECURITY OR NOTHIN. I HAVE POLICE OFFICERS WHO VOUCH THAT I HAVE CALLED THEM AND HAVE MADE SURE THAT THEY WERE FULLY AWARE OF MY TEEN PARTIES. EVERY INCIDENT CAN’T BE STOPPED BUT YOU MUST REALIZE THAT THESE PARTYS HAVE MISSIONS. FOR EXAMPLE SOME MISSIONS ARE TO RAISE AWARENESS ON HOMELESSNESS IN OUR CITY OR TO RAISE MONEY FOR EXAMPLE FOR HAITI. I AM 100 PERCCENT OPPOSED TO THIS LEGISLATION. I RESPECT THE ALDERWOMAN FOR PROPOSING THE LEGISLATION BUT I DISAGREE WITH IT. I MEAN NOT FOR NOTHING IF A PERSON SEE’S A PERSON THEY HAVE BEEN WANTING TO FIGHT FOR A LONG TIME WHETHER ITS @ SCHOOL, THE MALL OR AT A PARTY IF YOU SEE SOMEONE THAT YOU ARE FEUDING WITH YOUU ARE GOING TO FIGHT THEM WHEN YOU SEE THEM. AND IF ANYONE HAS ANYTHING IN RESPONSE TO NWHAT I SAID YOU CAN EMAIL ME OR CONTACT ME..THANK YOU

posted by: Robb Bartolomeo on February 5, 2010  9:07pm

This new ordinance as it is written..

WHEREAS: an “underage party” means a gathering of five or more people under the age of 21 to whom the sale of alcoholic liquor is by law forbidden at any occupied structure, dwelling, curtilage or club open to the public open to public where persons over the age of 21 may lawfully purchase or consume alcohol

Would make the sale of liquor at any restaurant in New Haven illegal.

New Haven is enacting prohibition! OK….Who would have thought it, thank god I have a license for people to dance with no liquor, so im ok!

Kudos to the Alderwoman for her good work in getting this bill introduced and hopefully passed.  As a non-drinker I think alcohol should be banned, its expensive, messy and comes with far too much liability for people’s actions to those that sell it.  I support this bill completely.

posted by: Dot Khan on February 5, 2010  10:06pm

Toad’s was ahead of most places in trying to do things right by having one of the first ID scanners ever made back in 1985. It was handmade and the image quality on the tape was not very clear. Many newer models are not as rugged and keep breaking down.

ID scanners are not perfect.
The machines are more useful to prove an ID was used to get into a club over whether it is legit.
Connecticut state issued IDs do not have all of the features that other states use for their ID cards that would make it easy to verify an ID.
Often the feel and texture of a card gives away a fake over the scan the machine takes of it.
Some fake IDs are so good that they can fool police officers but are caught by a an employee with the experience of handling hundreds of IDs.

Years ago on a trip to Salt Lake City, people seeing my Toad’s t-shirt recognized Toad’s Place as a nationally known TRUE music venue.

posted by: robn on February 6, 2010  10:31am

First falls Paris, then Amsterdam, but New Haven????....goodbye sweet night life…the squares have won.

Partypoopers

posted by: JP on February 8, 2010  10:20am

Dot Khan, Toads was busted again last night for underage drinking so i guess they are not as great about stopping it as you said.

Robn, It the beginning of a real night life. Non of these underage nights go on in real cities and most people over 21 don’t come down the New Haven because of the teenie bopper scene.

posted by: Threefifths on February 8, 2010  11:00am

Shades of Fascism!!!!!!!

posted by: notty on February 8, 2010  1:02pm

To all of you who oppose this legislation. If any of you have been to these parties, they are teen porn period. Many of you who have daughters should attend one of these parties and you will see your daughter giving lap dances, or getting grind by some teenage boy from behind, while he ejaculates in his pants. In some cases it has been rumored that some young ladies do not wear any under garments and while giving a lap dance, they at the same time is engaging in intercourse. Now picture if you will these young teenage girls coming to that same club (static) or 5 senses and the older men on the other side of the room see them in all this revealing attire, and lap dancing some young boy, what do you think that older guy is thinking. This is not partying, these teen parties are orgies at its best. ... What are the parents left with at the end of the night, news that their teenage daughter is pregnant, news that their teenage boy was jumped and got the crap beat out of him. Shame of any adult who think this is a way to keep the kids busy in the city, and by the way in case you are not aware, the house parties you talk about Mr. Huggy Bear, well soon there will be an ordinance that requires house parties to get permits from the NEW HAVEN POLICE DEPARTMENT. We all know most house parties are death traps, with little to no Adult supervision. So I for one support Alderwoman James and look forward to the long over due up the age to 21 if you want to club.

posted by: robn on February 8, 2010  2:05pm

JP,

You mean its so crowded downtown that nobody comes downtown anymore?

posted by: robn on February 8, 2010  8:56pm

NOTTY,

<i>“Semper ubi sub ubi.” Julius Ceasar</i?

posted by: ian applegate on February 9, 2010  6:39am

http://stereomedia.org/townofnewhaven/10_03/readmore02.jpg

posted by: notty on February 9, 2010  5:16pm

Yes Robn, they should always wear underwear as you put it in Latin, although the Latin word Ubi is translated Where and not wear but I get your point.

posted by: Dot Khan on February 17, 2010  5:39pm

Raiding Toad’s is good publicity for the liquor commission. Toad’s large capacity means that there is bound to be more kids that slipped in with fake IDs because there are more people going there. Imagine if they raided the Yale / Harvard game which probably does not even have any ID checker. 2 underage kids in a place holding 750 is not as bad as 2 in a small bar holding 50.
Its easier to go after the clubs instead of tightening use of fake IDs.

posted by: clue on March 4, 2010  1:04am

all you have to do is rework the fire occupancy code. places that hold more people, make more $. more people, more problems across the board. make the license more expense more the establishments that hold more people. and when they violate the law, underage drinking or overcrowded then hit them in the pocket