Firefighters Object To New Lieutenant Spots

Cole "Its about doing your time....."

That is precisely the thinking that has driven the city into the mess that it's in. Why shouldn't promotions be aligned with competence? ...or leadership ability?

Sounds similar to supporting a mayoral candidate with a lack of ideas just because that person has been around a long time.

@stop the madness: does the military take a private and make him a Lieutenant within 2.5 years? The NHFD does, and sometimes, it is to the taxpayers detriment. Cole is correct in the assertion of time creates better leaders in the fire service, as experience and mentoring produce more competent leaders. The Union's argument to the city is also correct, int the claim that every time they have tried to circumvent the industry norms, and past practices (no matter what race the plaintiffs are), they have lost, and lost badly and cost the taxpayers dearly. The City's claim that they need to "fill leadership positions," is comical. What, they can only fill Lieutenant positions to get more leadership positions? There are Captains who should be promoted to Battalion Chiefs, Lieutenants who should be promoted to Captain, and seasoned privates who should be promoted to Lieutenant--Smuts' argument is meritless. If they want good, solid leaders, they should promote from the top down (as past practice in the industry shows works), not try to under fill positions to create a bottom-heavy leadership, while still leaving higher ranks unfilled. But, it is the City of New Haven--if they can move some favors through the ranks quicker, they'll do it to cost you more tax dollars when they finally get called on it.

My sediments precisely leadership and competence come from experience and time in a leadership position. What the city is looking to do is instead of promoting seasoned officers to Captain they want to unfund the vacacant Captains positions, which Lieutenants with as much as 15 years in that position would test for it. Instead they want to take those vacant Captains positions make them all Lieutenants positions and test privates for those positions who could have as little as 30 months on the fire department have them wait the one year required to be in "grade" to test for the open Captains positions but only after they refund them. So what this does is make an officer who essentially could have 3 and a half years on the job a Captain who will most likely be in the position to be an acting battalion chief. This not only endangers the citizens it also puts the firefighters at risk under their command under the command of an under experienced officer which can lead to tragic results. So to your statement about competence and leadership ability you're are absolutely correct but I'm not the one you should be asking that question it's the current administration because what they want to do dismisses those 2 things.

And answering the honorable Morrison's question if it was a threat of a lawsuit if the city decided to do this.My answer to her honor, it's certainly not a threat at all it is my promise.

Promotion; anywhere else in the world its about rewarding good performance.

In the NHFD, "It's about doing your time and earning your spot."

I was at the meeting last night and as a property owner in New Haven, I would rather have someone with competence AND experience directing units to respond to an emergency. I can read all the books I need, but there is nothing to match experience. The NHFD (union and rank & file) made their point very well last night and the City should listen (and did by ultimately agreeing to formulate a committee that includes Firemen to look more deeply into the amendment) ... a rookie lieutenant with one year experience will not bring as much to a situation as a veteran lieutenant with 15 years experience. And to think otherwise is just plain stupid. How about setting some additional criteria such as number of years experience in a position before you can test up. Knowledge is knowing and can be obtained in books - but wisdom is knowing how to apply the knowledge thru experience in the journey. I expect the best from our NHPD.

People are miss understanding my position I DO NOT think just time on job earns you a promotion. My position is experience is very important. When I said doing your time and and earning your spot I meant having the experience through time on the job and earning your spot through studying your hardest placing well on the test and "earning your spot".to be a Captain My position on being promoted is if a fair test is given with material related to the position testing for you promote whom ever did best on the exam, in order of your test score period. Not using the rule of 3, not fudging test scores, not throwing out 2 promotion exams do to the administration not liking the make up and deciding to violate every one's civil rights that took that test (and that was proven in the US Supreme Court that is fact not my opinion). Hope this clears things up for some.

"Don't come in here "threatening us" alderwoman Jeanette Morrison said".

I was at the meeting last night and I did not interpret the union's position as threatening.
They were asking to correct an amendment passed by the finance committee after all public hearings had concluded on the 2012/13 budget. They and the public had no opportunity to respond.

In this instance the Fire Union was asking for a parley, rather than take the matter directly into the court system, which they were promising to do.

That was the thrust of the alternative, talk to me now, or talk to me later in front of a judge.

Wisely, at that point Smuts stepped in, although he could have done so days earlier, but waited until the hearing to offer a his saving solution: parley.

The Fire Union has a history of suing the city and wining. This potential suit would have made it -0- of 10 against the city.

Too bad Alderwomen Morrison could not interpret the issue that way.

GC,

You're talking in circles. If a fireman's job performance and his/her competence measured through testing are the metrics for promotion then longevity, or lack thereof, is irrelevant. If you think your longevity makes you perform and test better than less experienced firemen that's fine...put it to the test and let the better fireman win.

Oh yeah...please stop suing our city. No other department in the city even comes close to being on the warpath against its employer like you guys.

I'm curious, what is the pay scale for New Haven firefighters? How much do new firefighters, lieutenants, and captains make, and how does this compare to salaries of firefighters in other cities?

Indeed I am lol. City hall makes me tbink in circles. Bottom line he who finishes first wins the race fair is fair. Remember support your firefighters the life they save may be yours. Thanks Gary

The Fire Department is basically a semi-military organization that performs its duties based on a table of organization command structure. There is an oath of office at all ranks. The fire line positions consist of Firefighter, Lieutenant, Captain, Battalion Chief, Deputy Chief and Assistant Chief of Operations. Promotion to the officer rank is done through the Civil Service process. When vacancies occur in the officers ranks through retirements exams are held to fill the vacant ranks in order to have the continuity of command maintained in all ranks. Failure to have exams is not caused by the union leadership. The Board of Fire Commissioners and the watchdogs of the city services, the Board of Alderman, all have a role to play in keeping the fire department fully staffed in a timely manner. Promotions from the top down ensures the experienced officers (just like the military)will have the leadership qualities to lead the gallant men and women on the fire line and maintain the necessary discipline through the chain of command in the department. It is time to rebuild the NHFD back to the reputation it had for many decades. Playing political games will only continue to hurt and discourage our brave men and women who put their lives on the line.

The sense of entitlement among the NHFD is overwhelming at times.

I would like to see the NHI file a FOI request to see who receives NHFD pensions and the amounts and then publish the information in the NHI. We can then begin to have a debate about the NHFD. And maybe then the BOA and the rest of the taxpayers will wake up.

@ NH Taxes
I'd like you to think about what we do for a second and what we deal with for citizens.There are 6 people able to enjoy their family including a 2 year old and a 4 month old that I personally gave back life so they could enjoy their family not to mention the countless lives my brother and sister firefighters have saved. How would you do if you watched a guy shot in front of you and the shooter while running opens fire on you. Let me ask you how would you handle holding a 20 year old kid in your arms after he crashes his motorcycle on the Q bridge while he's taking his last breaths and telling him everything will be ok. How would you handle going down to ground zero and seeing something being pulled from the ruble that you think used to be a human being but you're not quite sure all the while watching firefighters digging with their hands and a 5 gallon pail desperately trying to find just 1 person under 2 110 story buildings. How would you feel about going to work on Christmas Day and leaving your family and desperately try with no luck to rescue two men who were smoking crack and burned the house down and not even thinking twice about doing it and risking your life when you have 3 kids under 7 at home. I ask you to add that up on a piece of paper and see if it's worth our salary. Then you get back to me.

You can look up municipal and state pensions. Here is the link http://ctsunlight.org/