Eminent Domain Concern Rises At Stormy Tweed Confab

This provision is dangerous, Moscowitz said, and designed to allow for greater expansion down the road."You're looking to take property away from people, and you're going to lowball these people knowing that you can take this property away through eminent domain. [That paragraph] either has to be revised or deleted," he argued.

My Man!!!

I said the same thing back in 2016

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on October 5, 2016 3:27pm
Wake up.I told you all a long time ago that they would try to use Eminent Domain.

posted by: THREEFIFTHS on August 20, 2015 8:45am

I keep trying to tell you all. You are being sold out by Snake Oil sellingJudas Goat leaders.I am glad that some of the people are waking up.These gentrification vampires are steping up there game.The next step will be Eminent Domain and if you think that will not happen.Keep a eye on what they are doing in west haven. In fact in west haven they have form a group to fight these gentrification vampires off.

Look at West Haven.

Eminent domain likely in West Haven outlet mall battle

Mayor Ed O'Brien and his lawyers met Monday with two holdouts and their common attorney, with parties on both sides saying it's likely to be the last meeting before the city initiates eminent domain proceedings.

http://www.nhregister.com/general-news/20160824/eminent-domain-likely-in-west-haven-outlet-mall-battle

You all better read the book.City for sale. Keep Sleeping.

3/5's -- you took the words THE HAVEN right outta my mouth.... How about that West Haven booting out businesses and residents for a private deal!! This is a distortion of the true purpose of eminent domain as a tool to build in the public interest rather than the interest of a business.

If Scanlon believes they don't want to take houses-- remove the eminent domain clause and take it out of the hands of the sheeplike BOA. The Yale-branded alders will do as Yale tells them and the rest of the BOA usually don't know what's going on anyway.

3/5's --- I gotta read CITY FOR SALE!!!

@CityYankee -
"sheeplike BOA. The Yale-branded alders will do as Yale tells them and the rest of the BOA usually don't know what's going on anyway."

So true, and happy that the city will at least have choices this year in at least a few wards as some candidates declared their intentions today and hopefully more to come!

@Threefifths, yes you did and you provided the proof, which is pretty amazing.

AND just look at how WH made out, still vacant and NO start/finish in sight. Of course with it being election season, I think we can expect some more houses to be torn down a week or 2 before election day.

There are some houses that the city of New Haven and the town of East Haven (that were built after the airport was built,) that are way too close to the airport's runways. Those houses should have never been allowed to be built so close to the runways. They should be bought at market rates by the airport and torn down and replaced with noise buffering and flood buffering berms and landscaping to reduce flooding and noise to the surrounding neighborhoods.
Check this solution out for noise- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3131289/amp/Is-answer-airport-noise-Dutch-airport-uses-clever-landscaping-cut-noise-planes-HALF.html

Tweed has been a bully for many years. That this matter is now before the alders is proof of that not to mention Tweed's effort to undue the agreed upon binders and legislative solution crafted prior. It has spent many hours and god knows how much to overturn it politically - and then quickly went to court.

That being said - the eminent domain component was not added lightly. There is a plan or a plan B or C. We just don't know about it yet.

It is a simple question with either a "yes" or a "no" answer: can the 43-year lease agreement be amended or not? Is is a "take it" or "leave it" agreement?
The city's answer could not be more wishy-washy. Can it be amended - yes or no?

If yes, then all the hearings make sense, if no: then all the hearings are window-dressing and provide a fig leaf for "public participation" like the hearings during the master plan process. The public's input was taken into consideration, but that was all. Be aware: taking something into consideration just refers to a cognitive process of acknowledgement but not to a RE+ACTION (like I can listen to input, see evidence but decide to not act upon it). This happened with the master plan:

My conclusion about the market analysis (economic impact!): If one cannot get locations of competitors right your analysis is not reliable.
My conclusion about the master plan: the result was reached before any public hearings.
My conclusion about the 43-year agreement: it cannot be amended.

Alders, if you read this: do you want 43-years free frawl for Avport?

• no weight restrictions (= freight planes possible!)
  
• no flight time restrictions (= how to enforce a noise ordinance for a commercial enterprise then located in East Haven)?
  
• expansion beyond the existing parameter (safety zones will be needed if the existing safety zones are paved and used as runways)
  
• confiscation and expropriation per eminent domain
  
  Alders, are you willing to sell out the future of eastern New Haven? Please not. Demand changes.

How AvPort = Goldman Sachs will be making a profit - this is another question.
The current solution Avelo is not doing so well. Avelo is cutting back flights at the West Coast!

This is why the city needs to amend this 43-year lease agreement. Do we really want freight planes (note: Scanlon said: "not now" - which means: probably in the future)?

"Just over two months after launching operations, US start-up carrier Avelo Airlines is pulling back service to several of its launch cities, and raising prices."

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/two-months-after-launch-avelo-cuts-destination-cities-raises-prices/144501.article

posted by: VoteREPUBLICAN on July 9, 2021 5:23pm

@Threefifths, yes you did and you provided the proof, which is pretty amazing.

Like I said read the book.

City for Sale: Ed Koch and the Betrayal of New York

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1160184.City_for_Sale


What you and others have to understand is that the REPUBLICANS DO THE BANK JOB.THE Democrats DRIVE THE GETAWAY CAR.You see The donkey and the elephant symbols of the two dominant political parties are tied at the hip.The Democrats and Republicans are two teams in the same league merely two sides of the same coin, two heads of the same beast, two servants of the Upper Class, and two protectors of the corporate plutocracy.We need to untie the donkey and the elephant and put them on a raft and push them out to sea so far.The coast guard can not rescue them.

@CityYankee: you can thank the US Supreme Court for the expansion of eminent domain.

Dear Patricia Kane.
Before you thank the US SUpreme Ct for Kelo v New London-- don't forget to thank the CT STate Supreme Court "The Connecticut Supreme Court heard arguments on December 2, 2002. The state court issued its decision (268 Conn. 1, SC16742) on March 9, 2004, siding with the city in a 4–3 decision, with the majority opinion authored by Justice Flemming L. Norcott, Jr., joined by Justices David M. Borden, Richard N. Palmer and Christine Vertefeuille.[3] Justice Peter T. Zarella wrote the dissent, joined by Chief Justice William J. Sullivan and Justice Joette Katz.[4]" Can we say Democrats??
Then the US Supreme Court--- "On June 23, 2005, the Supreme Court, in a 5–4 decision, ruled in favor of the City of New London. Justice Stevens wrote the majority opinion, joined by Justices Anthony Kennedy, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer. "
Even the sainted RBG voted against the people and in favor of the businesses!!! I guess people forgot that.

Tweed has been around for 90 years. I am sure most of the homes were built after it already a going concern. I am even more certain the original owners are long gone. My family sold their house in 1964 because it was on Robert Drive and they felt it was too close to the airport. Just like being near a shooting range. It was a choice you made.

And do you notice that in all the commentary above, no one---NO ONE---has condemned the anonymous hooligan who used the "N" word?
NOWHERE do you read, "That behavior will NOT be condoned, and that person has NO place in 10,000 Hawks!." "This is NOT who we are!"
Nothing. Zip. Bupkis.
It seems pretty obvious, to me at least, that a few members have exposed themselves (in more ways than one, judging by the two "mooning" episodes), offering a clear picture of the opposition. And the tacit approval of these antics by the "victims" is indefensible.
I find the name, "10,000 Hawks," rather apropos, a "hawk" being a political term for a warmonger.
And, as is quite obvious, they have declared war on the rest of New Haven.

Again from Cousin Vinny, a tactic to distract the readers and push the conversation away from the issue at hand. Please , readers, don't be derailed in your quest to stop Tweed expansion .

I was not at the meeting online and did not witness the events he speaks of but they are not germane to the topic but merely reflective of the lows that public discourse has reached. Don't give it more attention than it deserves. Come on, Cousin Vinny-- try to stay on topic.

@ Cousin Vinny -
The meeting was a public meeting, it was announced via multiple social media channels. Among the 111 or so participants were not only members of the group but also union and building reps who want to pave and build. In addition proponents as well as office holders (and challengers) were in attendance too. Like KDW.

The article rightly did not focus on the zoom bombings. The meeting was about a 43-year agreement.

In a short time, Avelo will start service and an airline info site said the cities will be announced next week.
Now I ask CityYankee, Noteworthy, Claudia Bosch and Patricia Kane, what will be your reaction to the new airline coming to Tweed and if the service catches on with the public after the first few months, what is the next step? The court avenue has been closed, local, state and federal politicians and labor unions are in favor of Tweed's plan. The taking down of the last tree a year ago has improved Tweed's operational capability somewhat, the737-700's are the best performing 737's in Boeings 737 line up, good off short runways and other airlines fly the same model. I read a comment I think on NHR and the person said he has been in the airport's neighborhood for 25 years and the noise is getting worse, how can that be, American offers one daily flight, not the three they had in 2019. It's this type of grandstanding, calamity howling, over exaggerating that has made a mountain out of a molehill. From the infamous water chute comment to the planes landing and sinking into the ground comment that has egged some to try and top the last post.
It's time to realize the last hurdles have been overcome, Tweed is finally on it's way to be the airport for the shoreline, not a big airport but one that meet the needs of 90% of the areas travelers, the remaining 10% are international flyers and for them there is JFK. Start planning your future not fighting a losing battle, but see how Tweed's new service can be accepted as not something so bad for the majority of the Metro New Haven residents. The average take off and landing noise window is about 30-40 seconds. Not that bad when looks at the facts, not the bloated sky is falling posts.

No, City Yankee. No, Claudia. You don't get off that easy.
You want to paint this as a "distraction," but I stand by my statement that in not speaking out against such hooliganism, you give the appearance of not only tolerating it, but ENDORSING it!
And if this is the standard 10,000 Hawks holds themselves to, then it speaks VOLUMES about this organization's character, so don't go pulling that "don't look here, look there" stuff with the readers.

On behalf of 10,000 Hawks, we condemn the use of the N-word. We condemn "mooning" in public events. We affirm community conversations which are respectful and truthful. We affirm a high quality of life for all. To my knowledge, no member of 10,000 Hawks was involved in that despicable behavior. Any member of 10,000 Hawks found to have participated in these acts will be removed from our group.

Let's talk about the issues as well: the City of New Haven and the Town of East Haven and the Tweed-New Haven Airport Authority want to blindly sign a deal without having: 1) a sound study or the scope of noise pollution mitigation. 2) air pollution now, estimated air pollution once new planes fly, air pollution monitoring, and letting people know the impacts of ground-level ozone and ultrafine particulate emissions. 3) why a 43-year deal with only 2-years of job commitments? 4) why a 43-year deal when NOAA estimates that Tweed will be underwater by 2050? 5) can we get eminent domain and the blanket ordinance override language excised from this deal? 6) traffic calming plan before and after the planned East Haven terminal. 7) stormwater impacts of paving 1,000' of runway, additional parking lots and a new terminal -- this info will only be available in December? when they want to approve the deal in September?

Some people say, "well the airport has always been here." 10,000 Hawks say, we have always been here. The science is here now. Let's make decisions based on the facts. And, let's get these facts BEFORE we sign a 43-year deal with an international investment firm that tears up our rights as voters and taxpayers (see: eminent domain and ordinance overrides).

10,000 Hawks are sort of an inflated number, on the NHI poll, only 1177 voted against the runway expansion, whereas 3016 are in favor of it. The vast majority are in favor for more flights and soon that will materialize with Avelo offering 737 flights to places people want to go to. Fairy tale names don't amount to anything, it's just a last ditch effort to beat the overwhelming support Tweed is seeing support from the public, government officials and companies that see the need for Tweed to be the airport for the shoreline and end the dependence on far away Bradley field.
If a small number are so dead set of improving Tweed, might be time to put up the for sale sign, many more are in favor of Tweed than the relatively few opposed. I say give it some time and see if it is not as bad as a few say. To blame Tweed for pollution, global warming, noise is a stretch. Tweed will never rival Bradley or Providence or Westchester airports. You might even benefit from the new service.

Dear steve-- the 10000 Hawks is a name.. Like we all know the Seattle Supersonics were not traveling at supersonic speed. Get it? Name.

NHI polls?-- they are far from scientific since anyone from anywhere can reply. There has not been a referendum in Morris Cove or the sections of East Haven to get some real data because they don't want data. The powers that be want the airport. Who are those powers? Yale, some folks who travel for business, a few other businesses. I am pretty confident that other factors of our state are driving business out of CT or keeping others from leaving....like taxes and high costs.
While Tweed is not THE source of pollutions ; it is one we can keep from getting worse by leaving it as it is. The arguments made by people for it descend to the nonsensical. Tweed has never made a profit and it never will; given the many factors that influence this but the folks who will make money off the building of it are laughing all the way to the bank at NH taxpayer expense.

@CityYankee, the name does not fit the small group. Everyone who complains about Tweed came into the area many years later and then gripe about noise from the airport. Airports are noisy, it's what all airports do and have been doing for decades. Saying that Tweed has never made a profit is the past. Now two companies are willing to put money into Tweed and local funding will stop. Four million dollars will be used to upgrade the present terminal and in a few years a new terminal will be built along with an upgraded runway. Why not withhold judgement until the new service starts, as a project like this has never been done at Tweed before. To say there is a market for air travel in Hartford and not in New Haven is just not accurate. Both the New Haven and Hartford markets are similar in population so Tweed's new service should do well.
When United said they were coming to Tweed, a few started rumors of how bad the area would suffer with unsubstantiated claims that never happened. During the time United was at Tweed, they offered 4 daily flights to Chicago, 3-4 daily flights to Washington, Continental offered 3 daily flights to Newark and USairways offered flights to Washington, Baltimore and Philly. The cove area did not suffer any lasting harm.
Again I encourage all to wait and see just how one feels after the service starts. Tweed is moving forward in a way it has never done before and in a few months, service to many cities will start.
Also too the 737's Avelo will be using are next-gen models of the ones used by United years back and are stage 4 noise
compliant. I look forward to the new service as I am sure many others are and cutting out the road time to Bradley and being minutes away from boarding a flight.
One more point, Tweed is different now than back when United flew here. Runway overruns added, utility poles repositioned, trees cut and just last year the one tree that affected Tweed the most was cut down. Give Tweed a chance, it's a new day.

Dear Steve-- thank you so much for at least admitting that Tweed has always been a loser and a burden on the area taxpayers.
You never answered the data I provided about how expensive flights are from Tweed. Do you have any? Would you travel to Bradley to save hundreds of dollars on a flight or maybe take a train? I would and I have.
Another writer said Avelo is cutting flights and raising prices.... you think they will come to NH and offer more and have competitive prices. In this economy post-COVID-- it is not likely, at least for now.

I wish I shared your evidence that this is the answer for NH but I don't believe it is. A city struggling to stay afloat cannot afford pipe dreams like a money-making Tweed. I thought we were to deal with facts. My fondest wish is for the good of my hometown but I cannot in good conscience approve of this risk.. I hope the alders can see the facts beyond the hype and the pressure.

@CityYankee, in the past I have posted fares from Tweed and Bradley and at times they were similar and a few times Tweed was a bit lower. Airline fares are are not set in stone, but yield management teams are constantly changing fares depending on demand. Flying from Tweed means less ground time driving to a distant airport and if it's an early flight out of Bradley, that means a hotel stay adding to the travel costs.
Low cost airlines always start new service with very low fares to spur sales and after they slowly raise the fares depending on demand. As far as dropping cities, if demand is low, they assign planes to another city just as Allegiant did at the Worcester airport in a very short time. Avelo is a point to point airline, not like other legacy airlines that fly planes to hub airports allowing flyers to connect to other cities. Low cost airlines many times will offer 3-4 weekly flights per week instead of daily, if loads are good, they increase the frequency.
You ask for facts and here are some. Your mind is already made up and no matter how many facts I cite, you revert back to "Tweed is a loser, a drain on local funds and there is no market for air travel in the New Haven area." Avelo being a low cost airline like Allegiant, Frontier and others will offer low fares that will appeal to many flyers. It's Tweed's first low cost airline and these airlines are having the greatest growth.
In a short time we will see who has accurately forecasted Tweed's future. If I am wrong, I will admit to it, I hope you will do the same if you are wrong.

It's a deal , steve. We shall see. Meanwhile, what is your position on the looming topic of eminent domain for the project? And who do you think will be on the hook, should the project not be the money maker you think it will be? Should Goldman-Sachs take the financial hit or do you prefer the taxpayers pick up the pieces?

@CityYankee, I for one would not be in favor of Tweed going beyond the new plan as it stands now. A 6600 foot runway is enough to eliminate weight restricted and weather related flight diversions. I am not up to date on the eminent domain issue and therefore will not comment on it. I don't see a need for further runway expansion as the airport will be domestic airport, meaning no international flights, even Bradley field cannot support international flights. A 6600 foot runway will support flights to Chicago, Dallas and other midwest cities.
Projecting the future is a tricky business as no one can accurately say for sure what will happen. Avports and Avelo are putting up their own money because they feel it will pay off. This relieves New Haven of city funding, something that was always an issue with some. When looking back on lost opportunities at Tweed, United, Delta left due to the limited runway. Southwest never got beyond the runway distance and Northwest twice proposed service to their Detroit hub with two different types of airliners and the limited runway ended those plans. It's alway been the runway and nothing else. So four airlines saw a viable local market at Tweed but one thing stopped them cold, the runway. The New Haven market includes Bridgeport which is only 20 miles away and it adds a large population base as Sikorsky airport will never offer major airline service even though some have said Sikorsky is better equipped to expand, their runways have flooded over in the past and the runways are too short with no room to expand.
All things having considered, Tweed is the best option for the shoreline, near interstate highways, a large catchment area and even though some have said to move the airport to a rural area, that would entail a huge outlay of cash the state would pay for and being rural means no nearby highways and many trees cut down. Tweed is the lowest cost option and a modest amount of service would not cause what some have predicted.

@ Steve

@Claudia Bosch "Tweed could become a freight hub instead of what you envision." Tweed could never be a freight hub airport, a hub airport is where planes from all over the country land, are unloaded and reloaded and depart back to the city they came from.. Years back FedEx wanted to base one 727 freighter and was turned down by Deleito. The plane would have arrived in the AM and depart in the PM. If Tweed were to get freight flights, it would not be a constant flow of planes all day, but perhaps one or two flights daily.
Avelo just started flying in April and all airlines at first gauge passenger response and after a short time, if loads are light , they pull the service and add another city. The same thing happened at the Worcester airport with Allegiant starting service and some months later pulling the service. I made a comment earlier showing four airlines either serving Tweed or planned new service and all left due to the limited runway.
AvPorts and Avelo see potential for Tweed and are putting up money to upgrade the terminal to handle more flights and have commited to build a new terminal and upgrade the runway, and city funds for the airport will end.
Years back Tweed was on a list of the most underserved airports in the country, I have not been able to find that article and I don't expect some to believe me, but look at Bradley's market, Hartford and Springfield and Tweed's market, New Haven and Bridgeport. Both of those metro areas have similar populations.
I know no matter facts I cite, there is a default setting in some minds that anything with the name Tweed has to be opposed. Years back East Haven fought installing an instrument landing system and an on airport fire station. These were strictly safety improvements, no homes taken, no streets closed and no addition to the runway. The Allegheny crash years back might have been avoided if the instrument landing system was operational.