It’s College Street vs. The Shubert

This is too confusing...Toad's Place , a renown venue, is not bringing any name bands in, College St Music Hall, a fabulous venue, is seemingly struggling as well for top-flight shows, while the Capital Theater in Port Chester does great, yet New Haven needs a smaller music venue in a city-owned spot? I mean, come on!

Why don't they put in an 80's/90's dance club, and...let's see...call it Boppers??

I'm starting to believe New Haven is a mess.

The article doesn't say, but I presume this space is still to be rented/given away at a ridiculous $6/ft? ($60,000/yr, or $5,000/month).

Fwiw, neighboring commercial rents are at $25-$40/ft.

Also, is this a good time to ask about the 3,000sf, College Street commercial space that was included in the Cooperative Arts High School. Some reason why that isn't getting rented?

that's not Steve Mednick that's Jerry Garcia.

College Street Music Hall is doing great.

Mostly likely College Street Music Hall will win this. Yale has been trying to kill Toad's for years and a new Toad's size venue could finally get it done. Sorry Shubert/Albertus/LW Yale wins. But maybe you are part of this and just put in a proposal to make it look good. Future 2019 Headline: Legendary Music Venue Closes.

@robn...not saying they are not "doing great", I just don't see them bringing in top-flight shows like The Capitol, or even The Palace in Waterbury, of all places...they can do very I well, I'd guess, with "SuicideGirls: Blackheart Burlesque" or "Chromeo", I'm just not seeing sellouts is all.

New Havener, I recognize few of the names on the College Street marquee; this may have something to do with me being 64. Your proposal for a reincarnation of Boppers suggests you are not that much younger. More seriously, the fact that College Street is putting in a bid to develop a second venue suggests that it is doing well financially.

Average Taxpayer, part of the space at Co-op High School is being rented to a commercial firm, although the space was vacant for several years.

Tom, going to AT's first point, are the applications public? If so, could you provide a link?

Toots & The Maytals
Wilco
Kurt Vile
Decemberists
Steve Earle
Iron & Wine
Seu Jorge
Pixies
Social Distortion
Trombone Shorty
Melissa Ethridge
The Flaming Lips
Reverand Horton Heat
Violent Femmes
Peter Bjorn & John
Built To Spill
etc
etc
etc

I vote for the proposal that did not come from a consortium of non-profits looking to expand their downtown footprint....

As I have said before, College Street Music Hall is the most significant cultural addition to New Haven in decades.... doesn't the Shubert still 'close' for the summer???

robn, stop trying to put the beatdown on me...I said 'top-flight shows', and 'I'm not seeing sellouts'...I like the CSMH, just don't understand why they want a smaller music venue across the street when they have an underused(IMHO) already...

https://youtu.be/QIk_yUkisPU

Reverend Horton Heat was a great show(2 years ago), not near a sell-out, they went to Collinsville(of all places!) last year, and this year are not returning to CT...almost the same for Social Distortion(Oct 3rd/Capitol)...I missed the Flaming Lips...when was that?

Maybe I'll try the BlackHeart Burlesque...first drink on me. ;)

Basically I am at the age where I am "To Old to Rock 'n Roll but To Young to Die," so I don't recognize any of the groups or most music on current radio stations, so I can't judge the success of music clubs. I do know the "legendary" groups that have played at Toad's on their way up are in danger of turning to dust. New Haven looks to want to miss any music beyond clubs. Live Nation is building a music venue at Harbor Yard, Oakdale, Xfinity in Hartford while New Haven wants to be Greenwich Village. A few people have asked me this week what do they use this stadium [Yale Tennis Center] during the rest of the year. I tell them it isn't used.

Bill, both proposals are coming from non-profits that would expand their New Haven footprint.

CSMH gets the right acts for its size. Acts that would've never done Toad's or ever stopped in the area. I think some of the commenters judging it might be the wrong demographic...

If these are the two to choose from, it makes the most sense for this space that it go to the College Street people. At that intersection downtown, a smaller concert venue/club is a better fit and all-around makes more sense.
College Street's doing really well and has been a major asset downtown. Toad's Place is crap these days, and a better club of comparable size would be great. If I remember correctly, it would be a little smaller than Toads, but a little bigger than the Space Ballroom in Hamden, capacity-wise (so more than 300 but less than 1000?). I don't want to potentially make the Ballroom suffer, but I've seen a few shows there that would have benefitted greatly from being downtown and not in a suburban industrial park (I say that will all due respect to the Space people).
Maybe if this concert venue comes through, they can have the bar open even on nights when no shows are taking place -- then at least it can maintain a presence as a place to go, etc etc.?

Flaming Lips show was epic.

and we're also very lucky to get a band like Wilco in a 2000 seat venue.

Let's remember that this space is directly across from a high school. What downtown New Haven doesn't need is another club causing some of the problems Toad's and other clubs have had with smaller acts and their fans. More arts and education options would be a better fit.

Kevin,

The operative word in my comment was 'consortium'....

A cultural center and museum will better fit the needs for the area. I think there's enough clubs and music venues that goes on as it is. However, there is a lacking of sports entertainment venues in the city.

I'm rooting for College Street if only because they seem more inclined to promote local comedy shows with a smaller venue, whereas Albertus Magnus seems to be producing just like... more theater?

Quinnchione,

Personally, I am worried about an 'oversaturation' of the music scene in New Haven.

I look at this project as creating unnecessary competition for a music scene that is finally growing into it's own. There is only so much 'audience' to go around...

Rob Greenberg's vision for a Museum and Wine Bar would have been a better fit...

I wish it were possible for the two bidders to work together and share the space as both plans are interesting and cooperation between the competing parties might make the space more financially viable. In any case, the use of this space for theater performances would be the realization in part of a 1980's plan for a black box within the redesigned Shubert for use by community performers and visual artists. This design option was scratched for lack of funds and resulted in a meeting that eventually led to the formation of Artspace. I am excited to see another arts district expanding in the cultural capital of Connecticut, to complement Audubon Street and Erector Square, along with many stand-alone arts fixtures around town.

It's absurd that we're even having this discussion.

The Shubert (like Tweed) pays a ceremonial $1 annual rent to the City and receives $250K yearly. In the past few years, it has also been bailed out to the tune of $2 million+ in State subsidies.

Meanwhile, College Street faced substantial obstacles from Yale to even opening (see coverage of Alexander v. Nemerson emails in NHv Indy). And now it's very successful, and bidding for a property that will supplement its success (much like other concert halls in NYC have smaller venues adjacent to them).

Didn't the Shubert require a bailout from the city? Why would the city want a financially unstable and needy organization to expand?

Concerned: How much happens at the high school late in the evening? My club going days are (mostly) behind me, but in my day they didn't get going until 10 pm. I recall Ziggy Marley starting after midnight at the Third World International Cafe, and the same with John Cale at someplace near Temple or Whitney. (The 3d World Cafe was quite a trip. My friend & I showed up at 8, and were the only white boys in the place until midnight. I think to barmaid liked us, because it seemed our drinks were stronger than anyone else's. We were pretty happy by midnight. The show ended about 4 am, and we started work at 7. After that, our boss forbade my friend from going out with me. :).

@1644 I can't resist:

"Didn't the Shubert require a bailout from the city? Why would the city want a financially unstable and needy organization to expand?"

aka

Didn't [Tweed] require a bailout from the city? Why would the city want a financially unstable and needy organization to expand?

;)

The best fit for this space is by far the Shubert group. The space doesn't need another 'dance club' that College Street wants to bring in. Dance clubs are trouble. Drugs, fights and shootings on College Street would be what you are looking at. They last 3 to 5 years and they are gone. If College Street Music Hall says they wants a showplace, why has their leader been bragging all over town that he wants a dance club there? Music Hall has been bringing in acts that do 500 people and over to College Street. Why spend all that money on a place for live entertainment when they already have the ability to do those type smaller shows and not even pay any taxes (since they are a non-profit)? Since Music Hall opened in 2015, it has had maybe 25 shows that were worthwhile and with full houses. Music Hall went in spending millions on a place that will never, ever see that return coming back.

There are many folks in the city that do not want to see another dance club on the corner of College and Crown. We've been there, done that. It will cause trouble in the city's entertainment district. We've seen basement stabbings and tons of troublemakers moving around that area. The police don't want to close down streets at 2am and deal with the insanity of it all. College Street has not run a dance oriented spot in the past and have no idea what they are getting into. It will mean trouble, trouble and more trouble for them and even more trouble for the city.

To be handed that spot on a silver platter along with its six dollars a square foot rent is insane. It will mean that not only would it be putting the wrong thing in the wrong place, but basically giving it away as well. Matt Nemerson mentioned in the New Haven Independent that the six dollars is offset by the build out costs. However, almost all businesses have build out costs. It's part of building a business. So to give these folks a prime spot at six bucks a square foot because they are doing what everyone

[Ed.: The College Street people have contacted us to reassert that the plan is for a convert venue, not a dance club.]

Sean: There is no proposal to expand the airport, just improve its facilities within its present footprint. Likewise, I would not be opposed to the Shubert improving its facilities within its present footprint so that it could attract more business, be open more nights, longer, etc. Ideally, the Shubert would be as busy as Radio City Music Hall when the Christmas Spectacular is on, i.e five shows a day bringing thousands of well-heeled customers downtown.

(continued)

... else does that starts up a business makes no sense. They will be sitting there with very little overhead while creating chaos. The city is already battling a bad problem concerning drug overdoses. It doesn't need another one.

Let's really think about what we are doing. The Shubert group would make a venue free of bar room brawls, drugs and weapons, and is a natural for that spot. The perfect building blocks for our great city that will last for decades! (not some dumb short term dance club.) Let's do what's right. Let's vote for something that will help the city shine as it moves into the future. Dance clubs are a dime a dozen. They come and they go and have many, many liabilities that come with them. Don't forget what happened with the last guy who occupied that spot. It took a long time to just get him out of there. He had a cheap rent and the place became a cesspool. Let's not fall into that same trap.

Let's do what makes sense and put something that makes us proud into the vacancy on College and Crown!

I think my friend Paul Hammer is on to something. I think there could be be a benefit if the city allowed the two bidders to submit a revised, collaborative bid, so long as the offered rent were as least as high as the higher bid.

Bill, what substantive difference is there between a consortium of nonprofits and a single nonprofit as the tenant? Just curious - I don't have a preference myself.

@1644 Your twisting of the facts is wrong here.

"There is no proposal to expand the airport, just improve its facilities within its present footprint."

There is no expansion proposal now, though activists have beaten it back at least 3 times in the past 10 years. "Current footprint" is a falsehood - as you and others have noted, expanding the runway to pave the RSAs will take millions of dollars in federal funds. Tweed is already liable for tens of millions in federal grants, and any paving will add to the pile. This mirrors the City's constant borrowing of money - a "worry about it later, hopefully I'm not in office" mentality.

I have the documentation from FOIA requests to respond with proof but, to be honest, I'm getting sick of providing you with the benefit of the doubt on this and having to keep showing documentation for the obvious reality.

I really think you need to think about the Shubert in the same vein, as well as Pilot Pen. Notably, they all have been bailed out by the City and pay a nominal rent of $1. It's not coincidence.

As far as Shubert shows are concerned:

I am a huge concert-goer and festival-goer. I have been to hundreds of shows in the past 5-10 years, with no exaggeration. I have, on occasion, paid the high prices necessary to see a Shubert show.

The Shubert is overpriced and a bad venue for many bands. College Street is a GIFT to concert-goers in Connecticut. Anything they do is much more likely to be better than Shubert's plans, just based upon the short history of College Street so far.

From a music aficionado perspective, College Street is by far the best thing to happen to New Haven. I like rock, punk, jazz, hip hop, and on and on. All of it is better served by College Street's management.

What the city needs is more arts not more music in an already music rich environment in the New Haven area ( College St, Toad's, The Space, Stella Blue, Cafe 9, Pacific Standard, Bar, Brother Jimmies) And there no space for more trouble from another dance club!! Shubert all the way!!

Third World Cafe = Fuzzy Memories + Good Times

Kevin,

Whenever a bunch of non-profits pool their resources to do 'something new', there should be a giant red flag.

Albertus Magnus has no truck or business in this 'compact'. The Shubert is closed all summer to begin with, but have been eyeing the property for years. The Long Wharf missed their big 'move downtown' about a decade ago....

College Street Music Hall has been an impressive addition to downtown. They are already bringing smaller shows to the old Outer Space. Maybe it's the Outer Space, and not Toad's that will bear the brunt depending on the 'outcome'.

If the Shubert Enterprise should win, we might all be doomed to watching Andrew Lloyd Weber revivals at their Cabaret, since Cats doesn't fill the big theatre like it used to.....

It would they've great to have the Shubert Theatre win this and expand the current offering of the arts in this spot with an amazing consortium. This is a prime location for such a venue of this type. There's already a few dance clubs downtown and New Haven is in desperate need of creating something that not only gives back to the community through the arts but needs to establish a venue that will be impactful and less hedonistic. The last thing this spot needs is a venue to push the hedonistic ebb and flow as there is currently multiple problems of heavy drug users, congested late night traffic when the nightclubs close and people loiter in the streets into the late hours of the night.

New Haven deserves better and can do better and begin to thrive again.

In Appreciation of a Greater New Haven,

Urbanman180

Bill-

There's more kinds of plays out there beyond musicals and cats, just are there are other theatres involved beyond the Shubert. Long Wharf does some incredible stuff. Albertus magnus is a great theatre school. I think their pitch is wondeful. There's plenty of small sized music venues around the city.
What we don't have is dedicated small theatre spaces like they have in Philly or Chicago. Companies like Bregamos, Collective Consciousness, and New Haven theatre company make due with improvised spaces in art studios and the back of a thrift store. Spaces like the Little Theatre on Lincoln Street and Co-op High school would be wonderful if they were accesible to small, independent theatre artists, but their operators (ECA and CAPA - speak of the devil -, respectively) charge enormous fees for use. I would support the shubert consortium pitch IF they agree to make the spaces accessible. New Haven should have a much bigger small theatre community then it does- hopefully this space will provide that opportunity to grow.

The Schubert Consortium is clearly the inside favorite that Nemerson lost his job over.

Bill, the last time I checked the city's website (five minutes ago), Matt still runs the city's Economic Development Administration.

james s.: Both Philadelphia and Chicago are substantially larger than New Haven, so we shouldn't compare New haven to them. New Haven has tons of great theater: The Long Wharf & Rep, the Shubert for bigger shows, plus the Drama School, Cabaret, undergrad Dramat and residential college dramats. Plus, of course, community theater in Edgerton Park and other spots. It seems the groups you mention don't have a lot of financial support, and think because they want to do theater, someone else should be forced to subsidize them. I don't see why that should be so. If people want theater, they will pay for it. (Although the last time I was at the Long Wharf, the complaint was that its subscriber base was literally dying off.)

Kevin,

That's crazy. When did his unpaid leave expire?

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/nemerson_placed_on_leave/

btw, I don't think either choice is a bad one, I am just flat out against 'insider politics'.
That is something the sullies the mix from the start....

I don't think that space can be used as anything but a music/bar space that will change names every through years. No one over 27 years old would either notice that block of cement. I believe Long Wharf decided to stay on Long Wharf was becomes many of its older suburban (or East Rock/Westville patrons liked the fact that parking is free. The College Music Hall has found a great niche. That area was once home of multiple theaters and movie houses the colleges all have performing arts spaces, it's better not to pigeonhole this space. The problem with music clubs is that the industry and the patrons change even if you are in your early 30's and think you are cool keeping up with new trends eventually maturity and other commitments cause you to move on. Toad's is living on history and even "legendary" clubs like New York's Bottom Line close down.

Bill, I don't know when Nemerson's leave expired, but he spoke at a public meeting (I believe the Downtown Community Management Team) a few weeks ago in his official capacity. The deal was originally wired for College Street, but if the consortium comes up with more money, I suspect they will win.

Kevin,

Thanks of the 'inside skinny'!

Robn and Bill S. are correct, the College Street Musical Hall is the best thing to hit downtown New Haven in recent years, they bring in the kind of acts that appeal to the young college-educated workers and investors that every growing town needs to attract. And there are sellouts, by the way.

I am a huge lover of theater, but New Haven is frankly over-theatered with both the heavily subsidized Rep and Long Wharf, together with the Shubert's current lower-level touring shows. The Shubert events are nice, but they are super-old fashioned and aimed at too old an age group to help attract young workers and investors.